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Old May 1 2012, 11:41 PM   #1
SchwEnt
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Is IDIC illogical?

IDIC, Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. Isn't that illogical? Not the concept or philosophy, just the wording.

If the diversity is infinite, doesn't that already imply every infinite combination? Aren't two "infinites" redundant? Is that illogical phrasing?
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Old May 2 2012, 02:45 AM   #2
Endgame
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Re: Is IDIC illogical?

I have not done many posts and am not too sure of etiquette but did recently read the rules. I hope this is appropriate. Disability status which is socially constructed may be at the growing edge or the degenerative edge of evolution. Infinite diversity means infinite impairments (and disability) paired with infinitely many accepting and non-accepting environments. Person-environment fit is important. Growth occurs at the margins or at the fringes. The Eugenics Wars were fought so that people do not play God; but, there may come a time beyond freedom and dignity (to quote B.F. Skinner) when we take control of our gene pool and monitor positive and negative irregularities. Some species may take the long view and quietly evolve a species out of the competition. Perhaps a bit controversial.

A recipe for wellness: well-living, well-learning, well-loving, and well-being. As, it is really true that environment, knowledge, relationships, and decisions do matter.
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Old May 2 2012, 03:06 AM   #3
Sindatur
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Re: Is IDIC illogical?

Endgame wrote: View Post
I have not done many posts and am not too sure of etiquette but did recently read the rules. I hope this is appropriate. Disability status which is socially constructed may be at the growing edge or the degenerative edge of evolution. Infinite diversity means infinite impairments (and disability) paired with infinitely many accepting and non-accepting environments. Person-environment fit is important. Growth occurs at the margins or at the fringes. The Eugenics Wars were fought so that people do not play God; but, there may come a time beyond freedom and dignity (to quote B.F. Skinner) when we take control of our gene pool and monitor positive and negative irregularities. Some species may take the long view and quietly evolve a species out of the competition. Perhaps a bit controversial.

A recipe for wellness: well-living, well-learning, well-loving, and well-being. As, it is really true that environment, knowledge, relationships, and decisions do matter.
This is all true, and gut reaction makes you believe infinity on both sides of the equation brings more combinations, but, if one side of the equation is already infinitesimal (Sp?) how can you do like Buzz Lightyear preaches and "Go To Inifity and Beeeeyyyyyyooooonnnnnndddd". Infinity never stops, how can you multiply that?
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Old May 2 2012, 03:07 AM   #4
Tiberius
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Re: Is IDIC illogical?

Um, okay Endgame, I honestly am not quite sure what you are saying there...

But the way I see it, the phrase in English is probably translated direct from the Vulcan, and thus while the English words are the closest in meaning to the Vulcan words, the Vulcan words would have additional layers of meaning and of course be in perfect Vulcan grammar.
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Old May 2 2012, 04:10 AM   #5
Endgame
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Re: Is IDIC illogical?

n C r = n choices r at a time; n P r = n places r at a time. There are more ways to place things than to choose things. And, how many dimensions are we counting with? The Eternal is far more complicated than infinite sets. Ultimate transformation may be a religious goal (and appropriate to IDIC and Vulcans). We do not become Organians overnight. I hope this is not just nonsense. After all, I have it from a reliable source that what is unreal does not exist...
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Old May 2 2012, 04:15 AM   #6
Endgame
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Re: Is IDIC illogical?

... But then I did have a metaphysics instructor who taught that "space" does not exist. How then can "space" be the final frontier. Of course, the beginning announcements exist outside the ST multiverse... or do they?
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Old May 2 2012, 10:33 AM   #7
teacake
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Re: Is IDIC illogical?

Endgame wrote: View Post
... But then I did have a metaphysics instructor who taught that "space" does not exist.
Yes well, some of the run on sentences here would seem to bear this out.

How then can "space" be the final frontier.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Endgame,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

IOW, poetry.

Of course, the beginning announcements exist outside the ST multiverse... or do they?
IS THE OPENING MONOLOGUE CANON?!

Inquiring minds want to know.

(I've got faith of the heart that it is.)
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Old May 2 2012, 05:53 PM   #8
Tiberius
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Re: Is IDIC illogical?

Endgame wrote: View Post
n C r = n choices r at a time; n P r = n places r at a time. There are more ways to place things than to choose things. And, how many dimensions are we counting with? The Eternal is far more complicated than infinite sets. Ultimate transformation may be a religious goal (and appropriate to IDIC and Vulcans). We do not become Organians overnight. I hope this is not just nonsense. After all, I have it from a reliable source that what is unreal does not exist...
I get what you are saying.

For any set of N objects, there are >N combinations of them.

But, remember, there are different kinds of infinite, some larger than others.

For example, if I place a point in space, then extend a line 1 meter from it, and then extend the line infinitely in the other direction, then the line is infinitely long.

But if I extend the line infinitely in both directions from the point, it is also infinitely long, but longer than my first line.
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Old May 2 2012, 06:26 PM   #9
Anticitizen
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Re: Is IDIC illogical?

SchwEnt wrote: View Post
IDIC, Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. Isn't that illogical? Not the concept or philosophy, just the wording.

If the diversity is infinite, doesn't that already imply every infinite combination? Aren't two "infinites" redundant? Is that illogical phrasing?
Mathematics covers it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_theory
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Old May 2 2012, 08:05 PM   #10
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Re: Is IDIC illogical?

SchwEnt wrote: View Post
IDIC, Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. Isn't that illogical? Not the concept or philosophy, just the wording.

If the diversity is infinite, doesn't that already imply every infinite combination? Aren't two "infinites" redundant? Is that illogical phrasing?
I think "Infinite Diversity in/through Infinite Combinations" is meant to convey not only a breadth of diversity but a depth of diversity, too.

For example, what things are diverse in people? Size, shape, eye color, hair color, hair length, eyelash length, number of hairs in an eyebrow, toe-webedness, length of toes, number of red blood cells--quite literally ad infinitum. There is no end to the number of things that can exhibit diversity.

Now about this diversity: are there only two completely diverse eye colors--blue and brown? No, there are an infinite number of color variations. Are there only three kinds of eybrows: those made up of 82 hairs, those made up of 147 hairs, and those made up of 2,191 hairs? No, there are an infinite number of possible number of hairs in each eybrow.

So I think IDIC conveys the notion of both the number of attributes that can be diverse (infinite) and the degree to which each of attributes might vary (infinitely).

But "breadth versus depth" is just my take what the ostensibly redundant acronym "IDIC" might mean.
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Old May 2 2012, 09:02 PM   #11
Endgame
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Re: Is IDIC illogical?

An ecological niche is a multi-dimensional space that is like a species' role to fit in to its environment. For a plant that might be temperature, nutrients, salinity, moisture in ground and air, and various other limiting factors. So, there is potentially an infinite set of n dimensions and an infinite set of values for each dimension. This is true especially if a species is evolving. I guess that is the same thing only different of what the previous poster said.

Am I a philosopher dreaming I'm a poet dreaming I'm a philosopher -- or, am I a lieutenant dreaming I'm a captain dreaming I'm a lieutenant -- ??? Anyway, real world apparently calls and I must go visit a philosophy instructor.
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Old May 2 2012, 10:41 PM   #12
SchwEnt
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Re: Is IDIC illogical?

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
SchwEnt wrote: View Post
IDIC, Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. Isn't that illogical? Not the concept or philosophy, just the wording.

If the diversity is infinite, doesn't that already imply every infinite combination? Aren't two "infinites" redundant? Is that illogical phrasing?
I think "Infinite Diversity in/through Infinite Combinations" is meant to convey not only a breadth of diversity but a depth of diversity, too.

For example, what things are diverse in people? Size, shape, eye color, hair color, hair length, eyelash length, number of hairs in an eyebrow, toe-webedness, length of toes, number of red blood cells--quite literally ad infinitum. There is no end to the number of things that can exhibit diversity.

Now about this diversity: are there only two completely diverse eye colors--blue and brown? No, there are an infinite number of color variations. Are there only three kinds of eybrows: those made up of 82 hairs, those made up of 147 hairs, and those made up of 2,191 hairs? No, there are an infinite number of possible number of hairs in each eybrow.

So I think IDIC conveys the notion of both the number of attributes that can be diverse (infinite) and the degree to which each of attributes might vary (infinitely).

But "breadth versus depth" is just my take what the ostensibly redundant acronym "IDIC" might mean.

Yes, very good. That is the line of thinking I was considering. Just a semantics issue, I suppose. As mentioned, IDIC has a sense of "To Infinity and Beyond" to me. The "breadth versus depth", infinite singular diverse qualities in endless combinations, makes sense to me in that respect. Very good.
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Old May 8 2012, 01:28 AM   #13
Violet.Phoenix
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Re: Is IDIC illogical?

I think that IDIC is more meant to convey that because the diversity is already infinite, infinite combinations can and will result from this as you are going from one infinity to another. It would be illogical to go from one infinity to a value that is finite.
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