RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,536
Posts: 5,512,914
Members: 25,139
Currently online: 568
Newest member: Pammijo

TrekToday headlines

Two New Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Dec 26

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 28 2012, 10:55 PM   #1
Photon
Commodore
 
Photon's Avatar
 
Location: Dixie
But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situation.

IPML, one of my favs, but a Romulan uses "dogged" in a sentence. Please.
Photon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2012, 05:24 AM   #2
The Mighty Monkey of Mim
Captain
 
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio

Presumably the universal translator was translating an equivalent Romulan expression?
__________________
Watch out, or I'll get you with my Andorian ice powers.
The Mighty Monkey of Mim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2012, 11:30 AM   #3
The Mighty Monkey of Mim
Captain
 
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio

Also, who's to say Romulans don't have dogs? Or are you getting at something else entirely?
__________________
Watch out, or I'll get you with my Andorian ice powers.
The Mighty Monkey of Mim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2012, 01:03 PM   #4
Photon
Commodore
 
Photon's Avatar
 
Location: Dixie
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio

[QUOTE=The Mighty Monkey of Mim;6260131]Also, who's to say Romulans don't have dogs? Or are you getting at something else entirely?[/QUOTE

One of my biggest probs w/Treknology is the infamous universal translator. Species not even wearing them can communicate in the Queen's English. Total cop out, lazy, BS writing.
Photon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2012, 01:57 PM   #5
lvsxy808
Rear Admiral
 
lvsxy808's Avatar
 
Location: London
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio

Or, alternatively, a necessary evil to allow the story to be told at all. It's been that way since 1963 - why bother complaining about it now?

.
__________________
DS9-R fans! Want to know what happened after The Soul Key?

Read Deep Space Nine, Season 10
All 22 eps available to read on-screen or download and keep!
lvsxy808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2012, 04:12 PM   #6
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio

Photon wrote: View Post
One of my biggest probs w/Treknology is the infamous universal translator. Species not even wearing them can communicate in the Queen's English. Total cop out, lazy, BS writing.
Hmm. So, question for you:

You're watching a show featuring two Spanish-speaking characters, Anita and Maria. Anita says to Maria, "Tengo veinticinco años."

There are two ways to translate this into English. The first is the literal translation: "I have twenty-five years." The second is the idiomatic translation: "I am twenty-five years old."

You see, in Spanish, you don't refer to yourself as being X number of years old. You refer to yourself, or to someone else, as having X number of years. Age is a possession, not a state of being.

So, which translation would you prefer? The literal, or the idiomatic?

I ask this because it speaks to a larger question:

Do you object to idiomatic translations of foreign phrases that accurately capture the meaning being conveyed and insist on literal translations at all times? Or are idiomatic translations fair?

If the latter, then there's no reason to object to a Romulan using the term "dogged determination." Especially since Romulans and Humans have been in contact with each other for two hundred years as of "In the Pale Moonlight" -- more than enough time for both sides to learn the others' languages and idioms themselves.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2012, 06:09 PM   #7
Photon
Commodore
 
Photon's Avatar
 
Location: Dixie
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio

Sci wrote: View Post
Photon wrote: View Post
One of my biggest probs w/Treknology is the infamous universal translator. Species not even wearing them can communicate in the Queen's English. Total cop out, lazy, BS writing.
Hmm. So, question for you:

You're watching a show featuring two Spanish-speaking characters, Anita and Maria. Anita says to Maria, "Tengo veinticinco años."

There are two ways to translate this into English. The first is the literal translation: "I have twenty-five years." The second is the idiomatic translation: "I am twenty-five years old."

You see, in Spanish, you don't refer to yourself as being X number of years old. You refer to yourself, or to someone else, as having X number of years. Age is a possession, not a state of being.

So, which translation would you prefer? The literal, or the idiomatic?

I ask this because it speaks to a larger question:

Do you object to idiomatic translations of foreign phrases that accurately capture the meaning being conveyed and insist on literal translations at all times? Or are idiomatic translations fair?

If the latter, then there's no reason to object to a Romulan using the term "dogged determination." Especially since Romulans and Humans have been in contact with each other for two hundred years as of "In the Pale Moonlight" -- more than enough time for both sides to learn the others' languages and idioms themselves.
Humans don't speak to Romulans using Romulans idioms and catchy phrases.

At least in the TOS movies, there was a semblance of trying to speak in the native tongue.
Photon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2012, 06:19 PM   #8
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio

Photon wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Photon wrote: View Post
One of my biggest probs w/Treknology is the infamous universal translator. Species not even wearing them can communicate in the Queen's English. Total cop out, lazy, BS writing.
Hmm. So, question for you:

You're watching a show featuring two Spanish-speaking characters, Anita and Maria. Anita says to Maria, "Tengo veinticinco años."

There are two ways to translate this into English. The first is the literal translation: "I have twenty-five years." The second is the idiomatic translation: "I am twenty-five years old."

You see, in Spanish, you don't refer to yourself as being X number of years old. You refer to yourself, or to someone else, as having X number of years. Age is a possession, not a state of being.

So, which translation would you prefer? The literal, or the idiomatic?

I ask this because it speaks to a larger question:

Do you object to idiomatic translations of foreign phrases that accurately capture the meaning being conveyed and insist on literal translations at all times? Or are idiomatic translations fair?

If the latter, then there's no reason to object to a Romulan using the term "dogged determination." Especially since Romulans and Humans have been in contact with each other for two hundred years as of "In the Pale Moonlight" -- more than enough time for both sides to learn the others' languages and idioms themselves.
Humans don't speak to Romulans using Romulans idioms and catchy phrases.
1. We don't see the sum total of all Human/Romulan interactions. There's no reason to think Humans don't sometimes utilize Romulan idioms in speaking to Romulans.

2. That doesn't address the question of whether or not the Romulans themselves might use Human idioms when speaking to Humans. Or why it's particularly implausible that Senator Vreenak would use the phrase "dogged determination."
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2012, 02:48 AM   #9
ElimGarak
Ensign
 
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio

You can't rationalize U.T. in any way, but it's a necessary evil.

I defy you to come up with a sensible replacement for it that would allow the show to function. This could actually be a very interesting exercise...
ElimGarak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2012, 05:37 AM   #10
Tosk
Rear Admiral
 
Tosk's Avatar
 
Location: On the run.
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio

This just seems like pointless nitpicking to me. I believe the OP knows full well how difficult it would be for a show like DS9 to operate with a realistic approach to language translation. If it could at all.
Tosk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2012, 05:55 AM   #11
billcosby
Commodore
 
billcosby's Avatar
 
Location: billcosby
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio

Tosk wrote: View Post
This just seems like pointless nitpicking to me. I believe the OP knows full well how difficult it would be for a show like DS9 to operate with a realistic approach to language translation. If it could at all.
+1 to this.
Keep in mind that if and when we actually do find aliens, we can adjust our approach to this in fiction using real life experience.
__________________
My 1st Edition TrekCCG virtual expansion: http://billcosbytrekccg.blogspot.com/

billcosby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2012, 05:53 PM   #12
Temis the Vorta
Fleet Admiral
 
Temis the Vorta's Avatar
 
Location: Tatoinne
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio

ElimGarak wrote: View Post
I defy you to come up with a sensible replacement for it that would allow the show to function.
Subtitles.



Hey, Lost and Heroes used subtitles. Maybe it wouldn't make the audience immediately change the channel?
Temis the Vorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2012, 11:31 PM   #13
BennyRussel
Commander
 
BennyRussel's Avatar
 
Location: Right around the corner. Just across the track.
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
ElimGarak wrote: View Post
I defy you to come up with a sensible replacement for it that would allow the show to function.
Subtitles.



Hey, Lost and Heroes used subtitles. Maybe it wouldn't make the audience immediately change the channel?
The use of subtitles would be irrelevant. Suppose the Romulan referred to by the OP said

"Hs skaoid Gsoaiha alsiu!"

and a subtitle appeared that said

"But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situation."

The original issue remains. I agree with ElimGarak. There isn't a workable alternative to the UT that would make practical sense.

It is a show produced in the United States. The characters generally speak US English.
__________________
"No I don't hate Balboa. But I pity the fool."
- C. Lang
1982
BennyRussel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10 2012, 12:34 AM   #14
Tosk
Rear Admiral
 
Tosk's Avatar
 
Location: On the run.
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
ElimGarak wrote: View Post
I defy you to come up with a sensible replacement for it that would allow the show to function.
Subtitles.
How would subtitles help if a human and a Romulan were conversing unless all the characters would be able to speak all languages fluently? Isn't that less believable than a fake-tech solution?
Tosk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10 2012, 04:47 PM   #15
Worf'sParmach
Commander
 
Worf'sParmach's Avatar
 
Location: Plano, TX
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio

Gotta go with the others, the language issue/universal translator is just one of those things you have to grin and bear, even with all it's holes and inconsistencies. Because after all, it is just a TV show .

Subtitles wouldn't help, it would just mean that I the viewer know what the Romulan is saying but not that everyone in the room does. I suppose every delegate could have an actual translator with them at all times. Imagine listening to one of Sisko's impassioned rants but then having to wait for some guy to translate it into Romulan/Klingon/Bajoran/Whatever so the other person in the room can know they just got smacked down.
__________________
Obsessing over every detail in the Star Trek Universe since the 1990s
Check out my fanfic (pretty please ): http://www.fanfiction.net/~ginomo
Worf'sParmach is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:04 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.