Reading Promoted to The Premiership

[david lowbridge]

As a Reading FC fan, I want to say congratulations to Reading FC for their promotion last night to the Premiership (English Football). It has been well deserved and a long term coming.

[Roger Wilco]

Congratulations.

But I don't think it's such a monumental occasion that it needs a special thread other than the already existing football-thread.

[SmoothieX]

Can someone explain to a dumb American guy the whole concept of promotion/relegation?

Actually there are a few things about the European soccer leagues I totally don't get. Renting players, tours of foreign countries that I don't know if the games count or not, ads all over the jerseys, brawls in the stands, etc. I don't know when the season begins or ends, how the leagues are arranged, or what the ultimate championship the teams are shooting for.

I've gotten to appreciate the sport in recent years, there are just certain things that we don't have in the major sports leagues here.

Injury time is another one. In football, basketball, etc. the game ends definitively when the clock hits 0. In soccer, someone arbitrarily adds 3 minutes to the game, which the ref seems to interpret loosely.

If someone would enlighten me, I'll kindly explain some quirk of one of our sports.

[Alidar Jarok]

Relegation is the only one I don't really get. But I think that has more to do with the number of cities and no clear delineation between the major teams and more minor league teams.

Renting players seems fairly self-explanatory.

Stoppage time helps keep the clock moving. Yes, it is interpreted loosely, but not all games that have a clock that counts down stops it all the time. For example, in college basketball, the clock runs after someone scores. I don't think it's a huge deal, a difference of 30 seconds generally doesn't impact scoring chances.

[Starkers]

Renting players is refered to as loaning. Basically teams will loan a player to another team. Usually, but not always, the team doing the loaning out is a bigger team than the team doing the loaning in. It's done for multiple reasons. Sometimes a team is trying to offload a player but nobody wants to buy him or they can't afford his wages, and such a player might be loaned out, with the team taking him paying some of the wages at least. Also teams tend to loan out their younger players as part of their development. So, for example my team, Derby County, currently has a young player on loan from Tottenham Hotspur.

From the perspective of the team taking the player in, they (potentially) get a good player without having the expense of a transfer fee or a long, expensive, contract, so its a money saving act, although it also comes into play when teams get injuries, you get a player in to cover a position for a few weeks months.

Tours of foreign countries are never competative matches, they're just friendlies designed to make money.

[Starkers]

As for promotion/relegation it's a competative thing. Strictly speaking there's no such thing as major and minor football clubs. Obviously there are, but hypothetically there's nothing to stop a small team powering up the leagues and getting to the Premier League, and it has happened before (Wimbledon for example).

Promotion and relegation tends to make things interesting for those teams outside the top 4 or 5 who aren't ever going to win the Premier League trophy.

[Roger Wilco]

SmoothieX wrote:

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Can someone explain to a dumb American guy the whole concept of promotion/relegation?

Actually there are a few things about the European soccer leagues I totally don't get. Renting players,

Big clubs with big budgets have big rosters. A club like Manchester United has 40-ish players in their first team, and another 20 in their reserve team, which also plays a regular schedule and probably hundreds of youngsters between the ages of 15-19 who might have the potential of one day playing for the regular team but aren't quite there yet.

On any given match day however only 11 men can play, or 14 including substitutions, no more. Even factoring in injuries or players having bad form occasionally, they have far more players than could ever expect to wear their shirt in a normal season game. So they lend out some players who they think have potential and need playing time that they can't get with the club that "owns" their transfer rights.

tours of foreign countries that I don't know if the games count or not,

That's strictly marketing and making money by appealing to foreign audiences, the games don't count.

Unless you're talking about Champions League and Europa League, which you could think of as a sort of "play-off" with the CL trophy being the Super Bowl. (although some people will argue that winning their domestic league is more valuable).

ads all over the jerseys,

Money. 'nuff said.

brawls in the stands, etc.

Some people are just morons. It's an overrated problem though Nobody has to be afraid of anything anymore in European stadiums assuming they know how to behave themselves.

I don't know when the season begins or ends,

The season generally begins some time around august and ends around may/june. A little earlier in even years because of World Cup or European Football Championship. Each league handles it differently though. Some schedule a break around january/february because of the weather, some start a little earlier or later. The scandinavian leagues still start at the beginning of the year and end at the end I think, also because of the weather.

how the leagues are arranged,

That's historic. Someone started sometime and as more clubs were founded they were seperated into sections that allow for a reasonable number of games so the best team can be determined over the course of a year.

or what the ultimate championship the teams are shooting for.

Depends. Some would say winning the league is the most important, some would say winning the Champions League is, some would say beating their most hated rival is.
The domestic cup competitions aren't as prestigious in most countries, England and Germany being the exception.

Injury time is another one. In football, basketball, etc. the game ends definitively when the clock hits 0. In soccer, someone arbitrarily adds 3 minutes to the game, which the ref seems to interpret loosely.

It is interpreted loosely and often a source of great frustration (or joy), but it serves a good cause - discouraging players from slowing down the game by unsportsmanlike means (pretending injury, delaying the game when their team's ahead, etc.).

[HappyDayRiot]

david lowbridge wrote:

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As a Reading FC fan, I want to say congratulations to Reading FC for their promotion last night to the Premiership (English Football). It has been well deserved and a long term coming.

Congratulations. Hopefully my team will win the play-offs and join you. Got to say I never thought I'd be seeing Reading up and so far ahead of us after we played you off the pitch (in a thunderstorm to boot) back in January!

SmoothieX wrote:

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Can someone explain to a dumb American guy the whole concept of promotion/relegation?

Basically, at the end of the season, the top-placed teams and the bottom-placed teams - and it's normally the top/bottom three in a league of 20 or 24) either move up to the league above or drop down to the league. The financial implications can be massive, particularly between the top Premier League and the second league Championship. For promotion, it's the top two teams who go up 'automatically' and then the four teams below them enter a play-off against each other, with the winner getting promoted. Promotion/relegation means most teams are normally involved in some kind of action or drama for most of the season. Speaking as a supporter of a team who tend to fall at the last hurdle most seasons.... it's exciting and brilliant and heartbreaking. And everyone loves seeing a 'big' team get relegated

I don't know when the season begins or ends, how the leagues are arranged, or what the ultimate championship the teams are shooting for

Speaking solely for England/Wales - the season runs mid-August to early/mid-May; the professional league has four divisions - Premier League (a separate entity) then the Championship, League One and League Two. Below League Two is the 'Conference', a system of non- or semi-professional clubs. There are a fair few competitions, but the main ones are the league championships, the FA Cup (open to 760+ clubs across the whole country) and the League Cup (open to the four divisions above). Some of the top clubs will also play in the Champions League (top four teams from the Premier League) or the Europa League (positions 5-7 in the Premier League, or the winners of the FA or League Cups if they finished below 7th in the PL). Most teams priortise winning their league, getting promoted or avoiding relegation (as applicable) over the cups, which is a real shame.

Injury time is another one. In football, basketball, etc. the game ends definitively when the clock hits 0. In soccer, someone arbitrarily adds 3 minutes to the game, which the ref seems to interpret loosely

Injury time is a total pain in the ass. It's not quite as arbitrary it seems but it can often make no sense whatsoever. Generally though, you get time added on for making a substitution (30 seconds), goal celebrations (up to a minute, sometimes considerably less), treatment for injuries. The longest game I can recall had 11 minutes added on - Arsenal v Liverpool last season - but it's typically 3 or 4 minutes.

[Alidar Jarok]

Starkers wrote:

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As for promotion/relegation it's a competative thing. Strictly speaking there's no such thing as major and minor football clubs. Obviously there are, but hypothetically there's nothing to stop a small team powering up the leagues and getting to the Premier League, and it has happened before (Wimbledon for example).

Promotion and relegation tends to make things interesting for those teams outside the top 4 or 5 who aren't ever going to win the Premier League trophy.

But does it make it interesting in a good way. All I can see is if you have a shitty season, you'll end it feeling even more like shit because your team is now kicked out of the league. It's the equivalent of getting kicked while you're down after being repeatedly punched in the face. And for the team that doesn't get relegated, it's celebrating avoiding that kick after you're still on the ground.

[Starkers]

To quote Lt Worf, if there is nothing to lose then there is nothing to win. (or something like that) and actually a relegation fight can be exciting.

Without promotion/relegation football would be static and boring, football is a passionate sport, it's all about highs and lows, and I speak as a fan of the worst Premier League team ever (tm)

[Alidar Jarok]

Well, I think all that does is speak to the lack of parity in the sport that you need these side fights to keep you interested because you'll never have a shot at the top.

[Starkers]

There are 92 league clubs, before you even get into non league, I'm not sure true parity would ever be achiveavable. Promotion and relegation gives everyone something to play for at some level.

I'm not saying its perfect, and certainly in recent years money and the ongoing success of a small number of teams has reduced the chances of more provincial teams winning the Premier League, although plenty of big teams have fallen foul of relegation. Man City are one of the richest clubs in the world now, but it's not so long ago they were in the third tier of the league.

[clint g]

Hmm it sounds like football (soccer) is organized in a way that is closer to college sports in the US. Many teams with multiple leagues and divisions.

[Alidar Jarok]

Yeah, I kinda wonder how college football would be with relegation.

[Roger Wilco]

I don't think any fan looks forward to his team fighting against relegation, but without the possibility of crushing defeat, what's a victory really worth?

clint g wrote:

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Hmm it sounds like football (soccer) is organized in a way that is closer to college sports in the US. Many teams with multiple leagues and divisions.

Well, yes. There are +1000 professional soccer clubs in Europe alone (I'm too lazy to count the exact number, but I would guess it's actually at least 1500, in addition to hundreds or thousands more (I honestly don't know) in Asia, Africa and South/North America, with dozens of professional players each. That should give you an idea of the scope of this sport compared to american football (although, if that sport were organised more similar to soccer, most college players and many highschool players would be professionals too, which would significantly inflate their numbers).