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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Forgotten History.
Outstanding 56 51.38%
Above Average 39 35.78%
Average 9 8.26%
Below Average 3 2.75%
Poor 2 1.83%
Voters: 109. You may not vote on this poll

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Old April 28 2012, 03:46 AM   #136
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

^ Somebody please make a threadbomb out of that Lucsly pic!
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Old April 28 2012, 08:25 PM   #137
Ronald Held
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Perhaps I missed a post, but with there be annotation for this novel, Christopher?
After ~100 pages, the story seems to be going well.
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Old April 28 2012, 09:25 PM   #138
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Ronald Held wrote: View Post
Perhaps I missed a post, but with there be annotation for this novel, Christopher?
After ~100 pages, the story seems to be going well.
Yep, you missed a post:

Christopher wrote: View Post
Yevetha wrote: View Post
When will the annotations be up?
I'm not sure how soon I'll be able to get around to them. Plus I like to hold off a bit, give people a chance to read and form their own reactions before I post spoiler notes.
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Old April 28 2012, 10:09 PM   #139
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post
I'd hardly say "Amok Time" was a tragedy for Spock, or even a missed opportunity. On the contrary, it was more like a dodged bullet. He was much better off not marrying T'Pring. She was a cold, manipulative person who attempted to turn Spock into a murderer just so she could keep screwing her preferred boy toy -- which, by her own admission, she would've kept on doing anyway even if she had married Spock.
How T'Pring manipulated Spock was a horrible thing but Spock would not have committed murder and thus not been a murderer. Murder is specifically the unlawful, premeditated killing of another human being. Assuming that Vulcans would be considered humans for the sake of the law you could argue that Spock could not have committed a premeditated act in his mental state. However, the fact that koon-ut-kal-if-fee is a rarely used but still legal challenge, any death resulting from it would not be murder. We may consider it to be but the act happened on Vulcan and wes conducted under Vulcan laws.

A case could be made for prosecuting McCoy for fraud however.
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Old April 28 2012, 10:20 PM   #140
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Spock's own words once he returned to the ship: "There can be no excuse for the crime of which I'm guilty. I intend to offer no defense." So he certainly considered it an act of criminal homicide. Perhaps legally it would constitute manslaughter, but I wasn't talking about the law, I was talking about how he would feel about the situation and thus about T'Pring.
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Old April 28 2012, 10:29 PM   #141
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

It's true that Spock might consider what did as murder no competent court would convict him. In the eyes of the law he did nothing wrong. Seeing as he had just emerged from Plak Tow and thought he had killed Kirk, his opinions would be suspect at best. His emotional reaction to seeing Kirk alive also shows that he was not in his usual mental state. He might have presented himself at a Starbase but, assuming the JAG office is doing their job, no charges would be filed. He wouldn't offer a defence because none would be necessary. He may feel guilt for killing Kirk but he had no reason to consider it murder.
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Old April 29 2012, 12:42 AM   #142
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Bought, read and enjoyed as always, Christopher, thank you!

Any more DTI novels on the horizon? I'd love to see more from Jena Noi and Ducane. Oh, and totally aside, may I ask why you wrote Ducane so adversarially (Not a word, but go with me) in WTC?
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Old April 29 2012, 01:05 AM   #143
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

CommodoreNero wrote: View Post
Any more DTI novels on the horizon?
Not at the moment. I did two in a row and I'd like to try something else. And doing a third would probably be predicated on strong sales for the second, so it's too early to tell if it'll even be an option.

Oh, and totally aside, may I ask why you wrote Ducane so adversarially (Not a word, but go with me) in WTC?
It's a perfectly valid word. As for Ducane, I was just going with what Voyager showed about the policies of the Temporal Integrity Commission. In "Future's End," they were willing to destroy an entire starship based on an unproven suspicion that it was the cause of a disaster -- not even bothering to investigate first, just charging in guns blazing. And in "Relativity," Ducane arrested the "present" version of Braxton for the crimes of his future self -- punishing a completely innocent man for something he not only hadn't conceived of doing yet, but would be prevented from ever doing at all. That's horrifically unethical, a profound violation of the most fundamental principles of justice. Those told me that the Federation of the TIC's era had lost track of its core values and become a more oppressive state.

Besides, Ducane was just kind of smarmy. There was something shifty and mean about him, and in the context of the above, it made sense to play that up.

Even aside from all that, I think it was a good idea just for variety's sake. It wouldn't have been as interesting if all the uptime agents were nice people with compatible agendas. It was more fun to have the agents from different eras constantly bickering and clashing. And it was worth touching on the idea that societies sometimes lose touch with their ideals and go through dark periods. We can't assume the Federation will remain benevolent forever.
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Old April 29 2012, 02:37 AM   #144
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post
In "Future's End," they were willing to destroy an entire starship based on an unproven suspicion that it was the cause of a disaster -- not even bothering to investigate first, just charging in guns blazing.
To be fair that was likely "the Sol system was just destroyed/possibly traumatized from it" Braxton. when the other version showed up he didn't seem that bad.
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Old April 29 2012, 03:25 AM   #145
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I'm speaking of the overall impression that I formed from both episodes. If it had just been "Future's End" by itself, that rationalization could work, but if you take that together with what Ducane did in "Relativity," it suggests a pattern of "guilty until proven innocent" thinking. And I wanted to explore the implications of that possibility.
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Old April 29 2012, 03:53 AM   #146
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Bought it. Read it. Enjoyed it.

The CLB Trifecta.

I love how you made the book feel, to me, like a TNG era, TMP era, MyrU novel all in one and keeping it all cohesive. I loved every aspect of the book, from Lucsly giving Kirk the means to save the future history (pre-destination paradox?) to the Klingon-Andorian Compact and T'Pring finding the Kir'Shara, from the timeships themselves to founding of the DTI.

Everything gelled for me, and I agree with others' sentiments that a third DTI novel would be nice, but when the time is right (no pun intended).

I would also like to see another return to the TMP era or Titan.
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Old April 29 2012, 09:34 AM   #147
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post

It's a perfectly valid word. As for Ducane, I was just going with what Voyager showed about the policies of the Temporal Integrity Commission. In "Future's End," they were willing to destroy an entire starship based on an unproven suspicion that it was the cause of a disaster -- not even bothering to investigate first, just charging in guns blazing. And in "Relativity," Ducane arrested the "present" version of Braxton for the crimes of his future self -- punishing a completely innocent man for something he not only hadn't conceived of doing yet, but would be prevented from ever doing at all. That's horrifically unethical, a profound violation of the most fundamental principles of justice. Those told me that the Federation of the TIC's era had lost track of its core values and become a more oppressive state.

Besides, Ducane was just kind of smarmy. There was something shifty and mean about him, and in the context of the above, it made sense to play that up.

Even aside from all that, I think it was a good idea just for variety's sake. It wouldn't have been as interesting if all the uptime agents were nice people with compatible agendas. It was more fun to have the agents from different eras constantly bickering and clashing. And it was worth touching on the idea that societies sometimes lose touch with their ideals and go through dark periods. We can't assume the Federation will remain benevolent forever.
Didn't someone once write a book that touched upon this idea more explicitly? Where the TOS Crew find out that the Federation becomes a fascist state.

Em... Crossroad?
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Old April 29 2012, 11:02 AM   #148
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post
bok2384 wrote: View Post
Kudos for exploring Spock's pon farr and his relationship with T'Pring and the fall-out of "Amok Time". If nothing else, you've removed the need to consider Triangle in continuity because, unless I'm mistaken, that dealt with Spock's pon farr in the same time period.
I'd hardly say it was necessary to have Triangle in continuity. After all, there are presumably multiple other unexplained pon farrs in Spock's life that haven't been chronicled.
Not to be crude about it, but I'm sure fanfic authors have analyzed Spock's pon farrs countless times from a myriad of angles. IDIC.

I've read the book twice now and enjoyed it. Personally, it didn't have quite the same zip as the first DTI novel, but it was a fun voyage tying up the temporal adventures depicted in "The Original Series." It was also nice to visit the era around the end of the primary five-year mission and "The Motion Picture."

Thanks very much. I look forward to your next work.
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Old April 29 2012, 02:14 PM   #149
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

BrotherBenny wrote: View Post
I love how you made the book feel, to me, like a TNG era, TMP era, MyrU novel all in one and keeping it all cohesive.
Thanks! And yes, you pegged it. I not only used this as my chance to do the TAS-focused novel I've been wanting to do and the post-TMP followup I've been wanting to do -- I also seized the opportunity to do a "stealth" Myriad Universes tale (although not the specific one I've been wanting to do).



JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Didn't someone once write a book that touched upon this idea more explicitly? Where the TOS Crew find out that the Federation becomes a fascist state.

Em... Crossroad?
I believe so, and that may have been an influence on my thinking. Well, that and my general awareness of historical cycles. Not to mention that the events of the past decade in the United States make it worth reminding people that even the noblest of societies can lose touch with their ethics if they're not careful.



RTOlson wrote: View Post
Not to be crude about it, but I'm sure fanfic authors have analyzed Spock's pon farrs countless times from a myriad of angles. IDIC.
But in the years since Ex Machina, as I've given thought to what I'd do if I got to continue forward from there, this particular pon farr loomed large, since it pretty much had to be within a year of TMP/ExM. That and Spock's mentoring of Saavik (which prior books had also established as taking place around this time) -- as well as what the Enterprise crew did while Spock was away for so long -- were the main story points that stood out as the most important things to address in a new post-TMP novel.
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Old April 29 2012, 05:57 PM   #150
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

RPJOB wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
I'd hardly say "Amok Time" was a tragedy for Spock, or even a missed opportunity. On the contrary, it was more like a dodged bullet. He was much better off not marrying T'Pring. She was a cold, manipulative person who attempted to turn Spock into a murderer just so she could keep screwing her preferred boy toy -- which, by her own admission, she would've kept on doing anyway even if she had married Spock.
How T'Pring manipulated Spock was a horrible thing but Spock would not have committed murder and thus not been a murderer. Murder is specifically the unlawful, premeditated killing of another human being. Assuming that Vulcans would be considered humans for the sake of the law you could argue that Spock could not have committed a premeditated act in his mental state. However, the fact that koon-ut-kal-if-fee is a rarely used but still legal challenge, any death resulting from it would not be murder. We may consider it to be but the act happened on Vulcan and wes conducted under Vulcan laws.

A case could be made for prosecuting McCoy for fraud however.
T'Pring is just BEAUTIFUL!!...and both are in Pon Farr?

Spock learned something from Jim...SHOOT first, then ask questions!
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