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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old September 27 2012, 06:47 PM   #331
Qutluch
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

I went to memory alpha and read some of the writers quotes. It appears that the writer got what he wanted in the fans reaction.It is also interesting that the original ending had Tuvix sacrifice himself.


"Ken Biller then took over responsibility for the episode. "I ended up taking it over and completely rewriting it," he said. "It was [a] tricky episode, because it could devolve into something farcical. It is another one of those semi-hokey sci-fi premises, sort of the opposite of what I got in 'Faces' [....] We wanted to do something a little more serious and philosophical [than the original plot] and it began to emerge as we talked about it that there was something interesting there once you got past the hokiness of the set up. It started out as a joke. What do you call the guy? Neelok? Tuvix? It almost felt like a '60s sit-com. Brannon [Braga] and I even [came] up with a little theme song. So the trick was to see if we could actually make something compelling out of it." Thus, the writers experimented with the notion of making Tuvix greater than either Tuvok or Neelix alone and asked themselves what would happen if the Voyager crew found a way to return Tuvix's two constituent parts. (Cinefantastique, Vol. 28, No. 4/5)
Initially, the episode would have ended with Tuvix realizing, through some event or the reaction of the crew, that, for the greater good, he had to submit to the procedure of being split apart. "For a while that was the idea," recalled Ken Biller, "But then we began to talk about it and consider what if he really wanted to survive and he doesn't want to die and be killed. Michael [Piller] posed that question to me so I give Michael a lot of credit." (Cinefantastique, Vol. 28, No. 4/5)
Ken Biller then aimed to dramatize Janeway's dilemma at the episode's climax as much as he could. He explained, "I hoped to create tension at the end where it would be difficult for anyone watching to know what the right thing to do was [....] I wanted to keep asking the audience, just keep poking at the audience. There isn't an answer [....] It was an opportunity to show [Janeway] making the really tough decisions which captains are faced with." (Cinefantastique, Vol. 28, No. 4/5)"
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Old September 27 2012, 06:51 PM   #332
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

I also forgot to note that I truly appreciated the Doctor's response; he could not "heal" Tuvok and Neelix because his hypocratic oath did not allow for him to harm Tuvix. It made the Doc seem very human. i could see this as a lauching point for his character to become more involved with the crew.
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Old September 27 2012, 07:08 PM   #333
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

I do have to give it to Voyager in this circumstance, this is one of the few times they don't take the easy way out in a plot, and Tuvix conveniently sacrificing himself would have been very expedient for the plot. I just wish they would have thought about what they were doing in the end, because they really made their heroine look bad.

I also understand the intent. Janeway's in charge and they want her to be the one making the call. But like in Caretaker, the writers focus so much on Janeway making -the- call, they don't stop and think about what call she's making. In Caretaker, Janeway orders the Array destroyed to deprive the Kazon of it instead of using it to get home. But when you stop and think about it, they already drove off the Kazon and they could have used it to get home and used an explosive device with a timer as it's detonator. So in exercising her authority in that one she just seems stupid.

In Tuvix, Janeway again makes the call. Clearly they thought it out as Tuvix uses this argument in defending his own life, that it's not Janeway's call to make. But Janeway's the captain, she's making the tough choice, even though it's not hers to make and she's playing god with people's lives and taking one against his will. It's definitely a moral dilemma, but it's not Janeway's to resolve.

Picard certainly would have given a stirring lecture about how the greater good should compel Tuvix to make the proper choice. Kirk probably would have insulted him into doing it by shaming him with his cowardice. Sure, Janeway isn't Kirk or Picard but I don't think either of them would take a man's life against their will in this circumstance. As for it making Janeway "more human" somehow? I don't see it. She's not the "hero" in this episode and is acting downright villainous.
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Old September 27 2012, 07:15 PM   #334
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Yeah Janeway committed pretty blatant murder here. As for Neelix and Tuvok I cant see either character being OK with Janeways decision.
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Old September 27 2012, 07:46 PM   #335
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Tuvix did make a decision in the end.

He wanted to live.
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Old September 27 2012, 08:48 PM   #336
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

BruntFCA wrote: View Post
Yeah Janeway committed pretty blatant murder here. As for Neelix and Tuvok I cant see either character being OK with Janeways decision.
On a complete side note; nice avatar!
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Old September 27 2012, 09:00 PM   #337
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

R. Star wrote: View Post
In Tuvix, Janeway again makes the call. Clearly they thought it out as Tuvix uses this argument in defending his own life, that it's not Janeway's call to make. But Janeway's the captain, she's making the tough choice, even though it's not hers to make and she's playing god with people's lives and taking one against his will. It's definitely a moral dilemma, but it's not Janeway's to resolve.

Picard certainly would have given a stirring lecture about how the greater good should compel Tuvix to make the proper choice. Kirk probably would have insulted him into doing it by shaming him with his cowardice. Sure, Janeway isn't Kirk or Picard but I don't think either of them would take a man's life against their will in this circumstance. As for it making Janeway "more human" somehow? I don't see it. She's not the "hero" in this episode and is acting downright villainous.
It's not the last time Janeway will play god with people's lives & make tough calls that aren't really hers to make. I think that in trying to make their woman captain appear strong & decisive, they turned her into someone who makes a decision, then wallows in guilt over it later. Can't really go into any more detail at this point in the series.

I'm not sure the "greater good" means that Tuvix has to sacrifice himself. Chakotay (wuss who says nothing when Tuvix is pleading for his life) said that Tuvix was an example of the whole being greater than the sum of his parts, and Janeway's log praised him as more than competent as both a chief of security and a chef.

As for making her more human, it's the flaws that make us human. And heroes don't always act heroically. Sometimes they're driven by the same emotions the rest of us are.
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Old September 27 2012, 10:32 PM   #338
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

A copy of Tuvok's katra was inside Lon Suder.

Janeway could have just as easily ordered that Katra to overwhelm the Betazoid's personality, or the Doctor could have chemically suppressed Lon's Distinct higher functions.

But the argument that swayed the captain was that Kes loved Neelix.

Tuvok didn't have an advocate, although apparently Janeway knew his wife.

Probably had dinner with her lots.

"If it looks like he's going to die and my husband can't get home to me in time, I highly recommend that you offer yourself as my surrogate. He's actually quite talented"

Until Kes started crying, Janeway was of a mind to let Tuvix live.

And we all know that Kes' love for Neelix is infinite and forever.

Thank god they're so stable and intertwined.

Although if Tuvix wouldn't have kept trying to get his leg over, then Kes wouldn't have had such an extreme reaction to never again bumping fuzzies with the kitchenrat.
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Old September 27 2012, 10:55 PM   #339
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
But the argument that swayed the captain was that Kes loved Neelix.

... snipped for brevity ...

Until Kes started crying, Janeway was of a mind to let Tuvix live.

Yep. And this made Janeway look like a fool.

People die. That is life. It's actually the only thing we're guaranteed when we're born.

And before anyone starts going, "well, if you lost a loved one & had a chance to bring him back..."

I did. I was widowed at the age of 46. I would not take another's life to bring him back. That's simply immoral.
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Old September 27 2012, 11:14 PM   #340
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

teya wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
In Tuvix, Janeway again makes the call. Clearly they thought it out as Tuvix uses this argument in defending his own life, that it's not Janeway's call to make. But Janeway's the captain, she's making the tough choice, even though it's not hers to make and she's playing god with people's lives and taking one against his will. It's definitely a moral dilemma, but it's not Janeway's to resolve.

Picard certainly would have given a stirring lecture about how the greater good should compel Tuvix to make the proper choice. Kirk probably would have insulted him into doing it by shaming him with his cowardice. Sure, Janeway isn't Kirk or Picard but I don't think either of them would take a man's life against their will in this circumstance. As for it making Janeway "more human" somehow? I don't see it. She's not the "hero" in this episode and is acting downright villainous.
It's not the last time Janeway will play god with people's lives & make tough calls that aren't really hers to make. I think that in trying to make their woman captain appear strong & decisive, they turned her into someone who makes a decision, then wallows in guilt over it later. Can't really go into any more detail at this point in the series.

I'm not sure the "greater good" means that Tuvix has to sacrifice himself. Chakotay (wuss who says nothing when Tuvix is pleading for his life) said that Tuvix was an example of the whole being greater than the sum of his parts, and Janeway's log praised him as more than competent as both a chief of security and a chef.

As for making her more human, it's the flaws that make us human. And heroes don't always act heroically. Sometimes they're driven by the same emotions the rest of us are.
You're absolutely right about it not being the only ethically questionable call she makes. I get it that we make bad choices, but it makes it dang hard to sympathize with the main protagonist of a series when she's rather consistently pulling a stunt like this once a season or so.

This really would have made a good two parter if the worked in a plot with the Kazon or another bad guy where Tuvix is dying and with his dying act consents to the procedure to save his "parents." Janeway wouldn't be a murderer and you'd have an uplifting, if sad sacrifice that added some meaning to the two characters.
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Old September 27 2012, 11:18 PM   #341
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Brevity?

It's like you don't know me.

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Old September 27 2012, 11:26 PM   #342
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

R. Star wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
In Tuvix, Janeway again makes the call. Clearly they thought it out as Tuvix uses this argument in defending his own life, that it's not Janeway's call to make. But Janeway's the captain, she's making the tough choice, even though it's not hers to make and she's playing god with people's lives and taking one against his will. It's definitely a moral dilemma, but it's not Janeway's to resolve.

Picard certainly would have given a stirring lecture about how the greater good should compel Tuvix to make the proper choice. Kirk probably would have insulted him into doing it by shaming him with his cowardice. Sure, Janeway isn't Kirk or Picard but I don't think either of them would take a man's life against their will in this circumstance. As for it making Janeway "more human" somehow? I don't see it. She's not the "hero" in this episode and is acting downright villainous.
It's not the last time Janeway will play god with people's lives & make tough calls that aren't really hers to make. I think that in trying to make their woman captain appear strong & decisive, they turned her into someone who makes a decision, then wallows in guilt over it later. Can't really go into any more detail at this point in the series.

I'm not sure the "greater good" means that Tuvix has to sacrifice himself. Chakotay (wuss who says nothing when Tuvix is pleading for his life) said that Tuvix was an example of the whole being greater than the sum of his parts, and Janeway's log praised him as more than competent as both a chief of security and a chef.

As for making her more human, it's the flaws that make us human. And heroes don't always act heroically. Sometimes they're driven by the same emotions the rest of us are.
You're absolutely right about it not being the only ethically questionable call she makes. I get it that we make bad choices, but it makes it dang hard to sympathize with the main protagonist of a series when she's rather consistently pulling a stunt like this once a season or so.

This really would have made a good two parter if the worked in a plot with the Kazon or another bad guy where Tuvix is dying and with his dying act consents to the procedure to save his "parents." Janeway wouldn't be a murderer and you'd have an uplifting, if sad sacrifice that added some meaning to the two characters.
If Tuvix consents, then this is a shit story.

You get something like Similitude on Enterprise.

Remember the first time Riker saw that there was a clone of himself?

He disintegrates it and then says "The universe is only big enough for one Will Riker."

This I believe was not Deanna Troi's point of view.
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Old September 27 2012, 11:39 PM   #343
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Brevity?

It's like you don't know me.
Just wanted to be clear what points I was responding to, although I really liked your description of Kes & Neelix's relationship.
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Old September 27 2012, 11:42 PM   #344
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

R. Star wrote: View Post
You're absolutely right about it not being the only ethically questionable call she makes. I get it that we make bad choices, but it makes it dang hard to sympathize with the main protagonist of a series when she's rather consistently pulling a stunt like this once a season or so.
Having an occasionally (or more often) unsympathetic protagonist *is* tricky. And it may be a matter of taste. I like to be challenged that way. Sometimes. Other times, I enjoy throwing whatever knitting work-in-progress is at hand at my TV.
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Old September 28 2012, 12:08 AM   #345
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

What if Tuvix had been an aggressive, angry emulsion of the two? If his unrepressed Vulcan emotion had been the dominant personality rather than being the slightly smarter version of Neelix we got?

And he raged and demanded that he be allowed to live?

Would there be the same level of sympathy?
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