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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old April 12 2012, 09:53 PM   #16
C.E. Evans
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Re: What's with the Uniforms?

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
Be glad at least that they're not as bad as what appeared in The Cage and WNMHGB. Those stripe combinations made no damn sense whatsoever, nor did the uniform colors.
In "The Cage," one stripe meant officer, a black and gold stripe meant noncom, and no stripe meant enlisted.

In "Where No Man Has Gone Before," it was essentially the same thing, except two stripes meant captain/commanding officer.

Individual ranks still existed, but they seemed to be regarded more like titles. Position (like who was captain, first officer, chief engineer, etc.) seemed to be more important than the number of stripes on a sleeve, IMO.

As for the uniform colors, it seemed to be not that terribly different from the one used in later in TOS but with more subdued colors (greenish gold for command, blue for sciences and support, and salmon for everything else).
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Old April 12 2012, 11:06 PM   #17
Lord Garth, FOI
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Re: What's with the Uniforms?

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
^^^ So the endless debates that have occupied the time of many a TrekBBS member about Starfleet as a non-military organization never existed?
People can debate whatever they like. Nonetheless, the possible non-military nature of Starfleet doesn't really rear its head in TOS (unless you count Kirk's remark late in the series - "Day Of The Dove" - that "we've been trained to think in terms other than war" as evidence). Things that Roddenberry wrote before and during TOS often reference military antecedents, including his suggestion in the TOS Writer's Guide that screenwriters for the show ask themselves whether character behavior would be plausible if the story were being told on a 20th century naval vessel.

Roddenberry began using terms like "paramilitary" to describe Starfleet in the 1970s.

++++++++++++++++++++++

Roddenberry wasn't as much of a hippee in the 60's and the men who forged the original trek including Gene Coon (who arguabley had as much to do with the vision of TOS as Roddenberry) were all WWII vets. TOS was clearly a Military -Western set in a deep space sci fi setting and the original notes back this up. Revisionist history and histrionics always loves to tell a different tale
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Old April 12 2012, 11:17 PM   #18
C.E. Evans
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Re: What's with the Uniforms?

Lord Garth, FOI wrote: View Post
My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
^^^ So the endless debates that have occupied the time of many a TrekBBS member about Starfleet as a non-military organization never existed?
People can debate whatever they like. Nonetheless, the possible non-military nature of Starfleet doesn't really rear its head in TOS (unless you count Kirk's remark late in the series - "Day Of The Dove" - that "we've been trained to think in terms other than war" as evidence). Things that Roddenberry wrote before and during TOS often reference military antecedents, including his suggestion in the TOS Writer's Guide that screenwriters for the show ask themselves whether character behavior would be plausible if the story were being told on a 20th century naval vessel.

Roddenberry began using terms like "paramilitary" to describe Starfleet in the 1970s.

++++++++++++++++++++++

Roddenberry wasn't as much of a hippee in the 60's and the men who forged the original trek including Gene Coon (who arguabley had as much to do with the vision of TOS as Roddenberry) were all WWII vets. TOS was clearly a Military -Western set in a deep space sci fi setting and the original notes back this up. Revisionist history and histrionics always loves to tell a different tale
It tends to happen with most long-running stuff. Essentially, they're making it up as they go along and inevitably changes are made that contradict with earlier material.
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Old April 13 2012, 03:02 AM   #19
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Re: What's with the Uniforms?

It is true while watching TOS it's very clear, especially in the first season, that Starfleet is meant to be military. Unfortunately, they never explicitly stated this, and so when the modern day shows began claiming Starfleet wasn't military, it was easy to retcon this into TOS. Even Trek XI tries to dance around the issue by having Pike describe Starfleet as a "humanitarian peacekeeping armada." Which sounds to me like they were trying to say "non-military military" without resorting to that actual wording.

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
...it's unfortunately another example of the movie's desire to look good over making sense.
Yeah, like McCoy's aforementioned uniform variation in TOS. More important to look good in 1966 than to make sense.
McCoy's short-sleeve shirt was an alternate uniform, and he did wear the standard long-sleeve shirt which diaplayed his rank just as often if not more.
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Old April 13 2012, 01:56 PM   #20
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: What's with the Uniforms?

Starfleet is a military organisation: they have armed ships, a command structure and rank hierarchy, uniforms, and it has been seen many times that it is there to defend the Federation. The thing about Starfleet is that that isn't their primary/only function: exploration, scientific investigation, humanitarian aid, diplomatic contact, are all among their high-level priorities.

Anyways, back to the discussion: why have short-sleeved uniforms for women only? The miniskirts I can understand why Kirk and Spock won't be wearing them, but they're all buff chaps, surely they wouldn't mind flashing the biceps.
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Old April 13 2012, 02:08 PM   #21
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Re: What's with the Uniforms?

Maybe if Uhura had a rank braid on her uniform, they wouldn't have called her "Cadet" and "lieutenant" in the same scene.

Honestly, I didn't notice the non-braid. Zoe Saldana was just too damned hot for me to care.
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Old April 13 2012, 03:31 PM   #22
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Re: What's with the Uniforms?

ssosmcin wrote: View Post
Maybe if Uhura had a rank braid on her uniform, they wouldn't have called her "Cadet" and "lieutenant" in the same scene.

Honestly, I didn't notice the non-braid. Zoe Saldana was just too damned hot for me to care.
This wasn't a mistake. Uhura was a cadet with the rank of lieutenant - just as Kirk was said to be in TOS (and was according to a barely visible screengraphic in STXI), and Saavik in Wrath of Khan.
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Old April 13 2012, 04:12 PM   #23
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Re: What's with the Uniforms?

Just as a side note for the military organization. From Yesterday is Tomorrow, thanks to chakoteya.net. Calling them a military organization alone wouldn't probably fit the views of society in that time period. Even solely saying Exploration wouldn't suffice. And just because ships are armed doesn't equal military as we know them today.

CHRISTOPHER: Must have taken quite a lot to build a ship like this.
KIRK: There are only twelve like it in the fleet.
CHRISTOPHER: I see. Navy?
KIRK:
We're a combined service, Captain. Our authority is the United Earth Space Probe Agency.
CHRISTOPHER: United Earth?
KIRK: This is very difficult to explain. We're from your future. A time warp placed us here. It was an accident.
CHRISTOPHER: You seem to have a lot of them. However, I can't deny the fact that you're here. With this ship.
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Old April 13 2012, 05:02 PM   #24
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Re: What's with the Uniforms?

^^^ I had forgotten about that. I was always under the impression that UESPA eventually became Starfleet after a certain point (maybe the founding of the Federation?) and was never really explored in great detail beyond that reference (although I think Q gave mention to it in the TNG pilot). IIRC, Enterprise completely glossed over that particular reference in its entirety.
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Old April 13 2012, 05:14 PM   #25
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Re: What's with the Uniforms?

On the short sleeved uniforms, I believe the cancelled Star Trek Phase 2 was going to have them for both sexes as an alternative to the long sleeves. Technician "boiler suits" would have had no sleeves.
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Old April 13 2012, 05:40 PM   #26
C.E. Evans
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Re: What's with the Uniforms?

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
^^^ I had forgotten about that. I was always under the impression that UESPA eventually became Starfleet after a certain point (maybe the founding of the Federation?) and was never really explored in great detail beyond that reference (although I think Q gave mention to it in the TNG pilot). IIRC, Enterprise completely glossed over that particular reference in its entirety.
Actually, they didn't--although you had to look really hard for it. During ENT's fourth season, various Starfleet banners on Earth sported both Starfleet and UESPA, suggesting possibly the two agencies were linked.
http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/...leet_UESPA.jpg
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Old April 13 2012, 06:16 PM   #27
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Re: What's with the Uniforms?

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Anyways, back to the discussion: why have short-sleeved uniforms for women only? The miniskirts I can understand why Kirk and Spock won't be wearing them, but they're all buff chaps, surely they wouldn't mind flashing the biceps.
Good point. However, Kirk and Spock could also skirts. Skirts were worn by male officers while on duty in TNG. And I think Scotty wore a kilt with his dress uniform once on TOS.
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Old April 13 2012, 06:21 PM   #28
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Re: What's with the Uniforms?

The skant in TNG was just being PC.
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Old April 13 2012, 06:33 PM   #29
137th Gebirg
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Re: What's with the Uniforms?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
^^^ I had forgotten about that. I was always under the impression that UESPA eventually became Starfleet after a certain point (maybe the founding of the Federation?) and was never really explored in great detail beyond that reference (although I think Q gave mention to it in the TNG pilot). IIRC, Enterprise completely glossed over that particular reference in its entirety.
Actually, they didn't--although you had to look really hard for it. During ENT's fourth season, various Starfleet banners on Earth sported both Starfleet and UESPA, suggesting possibly the two agencies were linked.
http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/...leet_UESPA.jpg
Very cool! Nice link to the past there. I guess the did take a stab at maintaining continuity. That one is quite obscure.
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Old April 13 2012, 09:23 PM   #30
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: What's with the Uniforms?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Good point. However, Kirk and Spock could also skirts. Skirts were worn by male officers while on duty in TNG. And I think Scotty wore a kilt with his dress uniform once on TOS.
Maybe the male version could be a pair of short shorts
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