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Old April 27 2012, 09:15 AM   #91
Gov Kodos
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

teacake wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Everything Admiral Janeway said to her child version of herself, had to have been a lie to make sure that when Captain Janeway rebelled against her (She's a Scorpion, it's in her nature. Oh, you thought the Borg were the Scorpion? Then why was Seven so helpful in Shattered?) to force the opposite of what she said that she wanted, until what really came to pass was exactly what the senior Katherine had in mind all along.
Kathryn Janeway was born on May 20th and so is a Taurus.
Says so on her pilot's license, no doubt.
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Old April 27 2012, 05:42 PM   #92
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

So touching on a few points of interest:

RE: Janeway and Chakotay

I hadn't actually ever heard about Mulgrew putting her foot down. That makes sense in retrospect that something behind the scenes happened because that pairing frankly seemed perfect ever since Resolutions in Season 2.

Any other pairing with Janeway felt unnatural after Resolutions.

RE: Chakotay and Seven

I absolutely agree that this seemingly came out of no where. Yea, there was some plot development, but not enough. Frankly, realistically, the way things went down, I would have more expected Seven to become infatuated with Chakotay and for him to pull the "You're not my type" card. Let's face it, up until that point, Seven and Chakotay weren't exactly in the same clique on the ship.

The being said, I expected Seven to end up with Harry. Right on from The Gift the two had one of those awkward "I'm attracted to you, but I can't figure out how to express it in a way that doesn't make me out to be a complete fool" things going on. Like Toress and Paris, I expected them to eventually figure things out and get together.
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Old April 27 2012, 07:08 PM   #93
Violet.Phoenix
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

Lighthammer wrote: View Post
So touching on a few points of interest:

RE: Janeway and Chakotay

I hadn't actually ever heard about Mulgrew putting her foot down. That makes sense in retrospect that something behind the scenes happened because that pairing frankly seemed perfect ever since Resolutions in Season 2.

Any other pairing with Janeway felt unnatural after Resolutions.
She says that she did so in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibVOzPUvtww&hl=en&fs=1&">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibVOzPUvtww&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344">

RE: Chakotay and Seven

I absolutely agree that this seemingly came out of no where. Yea, there was some plot development, but not enough. Frankly, realistically, the way things went down, I would have more expected Seven to become infatuated with Chakotay and for him to pull the "You're not my type" card. Let's face it, up until that point, Seven and Chakotay weren't exactly in the same clique on the ship.

The being said, I expected Seven to end up with Harry. Right on from The Gift the two had one of those awkward "I'm attracted to you, but I can't figure out how to express it in a way that doesn't make me out to be a complete fool" things going on. Like Toress and Paris, I expected them to eventually figure things out and get together.
That's exactly my thing with Chakotay and Seven. As for Harry and Seven, I saw the awkward attraction, but I felt it was more one-sided (Harry). I honestly expected Seven to end up with the Doc.
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Last edited by Violet.Phoenix; April 27 2012 at 07:08 PM. Reason: video clip wasn't working -_-
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Old April 28 2012, 12:44 AM   #94
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

I respect KM for saying don't make the first female captain all about romance. I think the character is much stronger for it.
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Old April 28 2012, 12:52 AM   #95
Violet.Phoenix
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

teacake wrote: View Post
I respect KM for saying don't make the first female captain all about romance. I think the character is much stronger for it.
I agree that it was a good decision to not make Janeway's character all about her romances and love life, but instead her leadership and determination. However, it felt like something was built up between her and Chakotay and then it was never resolved. I just wish that there could have been at least a scene where they decide whether or not they can actually have a relationship instead of dancing around the idea for a good five years.
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Old April 28 2012, 12:57 AM   #96
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

They couldn't even give us that scene for Kes and Neelix and they actually were together and then broke up!
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Old April 28 2012, 01:02 AM   #97
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

teacake wrote: View Post
I respect KM for saying don't make the first female captain all about romance. I think the character is much stronger for it.
Smells like fear.

"No" and "never" is so extreme.

Left with a possibility that it might happen if the writers can woo her with a script that isn't pulp garbage, creates a window, even a marginal window that something unexpected can happen.

On of my earliest memories is of my mother telling me to watch Magnum PI because he has a lot of girlfriends, later when I was a little more developed I started noticing that Thomas was more of a punching bag than a player... It's about then that I realized that my mother just watched advertising and not full shows because she had too much to do.

Although...

Kashyck, the guy from Workforce, and Sulivan from Fairhaven gave us the allusion that kathy was not completely closed to the idea of a relationship on her terms, it's just that her 'terms' were again extremely acute.
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Old April 28 2012, 01:13 AM   #98
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

teacake wrote: View Post
They couldn't even give us that scene for Kes and Neelix and they actually were together and then broke up!
They couldn't even give us Chakotay asking Seven out, or vice-versa. They just slapped it in our faces and we all went

Janeway did have some romantic relationships, but they were after she found out that Mark had moved on back home. Kashyk I think was partially the product of her trying to manipulate him and he trying to do the same, and they somehow fell in love in the process or something strange like that.

Jaffen (from Workforce) was another instance were there were different circumstances. For one thing, Janeway's memories had been tampered with, and I think that allowed her to be more comfortable with relationships because she was in a different working environment (shame they didn't actually have her in a relationship with Chakotay as originally planned).

Sullivan... I don't know what to say about that. People get lonely; it can be very lonely in space. He was something entirely different from the world around her.
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Old April 28 2012, 01:18 AM   #99
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

One thing I got out of the Sullivan relationship is that we actually see what Janeway wants because she programs him. I think its very significant that she says "make him more provocative". Chakotay is really lacking that, it's not a word you'd ever use to describe him. Perhaps if he had been less passive Janeway would have found her resolve to put her Captaincy first a little more challenged.

I rather liked Jaffen. I don't think she was in love with Kashyk at all but she was quite likely in lust/attracted to him. Playing the role of seducing him to believe in her would have rubbed off on her as well.
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Old April 28 2012, 01:20 AM   #100
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

But he was too different.

Janeway made him better.

She made him taller and single.

She gave a bar hand a first rate education.

She made a man.

What ever attraction she had in the beginning, was sidelined for something less embarrassing and demeaning.

Was she more happy with Classic Sullivan or Sullivan 2.0?

Put them side by side, which some would she pick?

Or would our Captain just bed them together in a devils threesome?
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Old April 28 2012, 01:21 AM   #101
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

Of course she would pick Sullivan 2.0.

Every one dreams of being able to tweak like that.

As I said somewhere or other Janeway's type is the warm hearted handyman. With intellect, education and a sharp, provocative mind.
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Old April 28 2012, 01:23 AM   #102
Violet.Phoenix
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

teacake wrote: View Post
One thing I got out of the Sullivan relationship is that we actually see what Janeway wants because she programs him. I think its very significant that she says "make him more provocative". Chakotay is really lacking that, it's not a word you'd ever use to describe him. Perhaps if he had been less passive Janeway would have found her resolve to put her Captaincy first a little more challenged.
I agree, Chakotay was just... there a lot of the time. Even when he challenged Janeway she usually won out in the end. You have to wonder if he had had a little more 'oomph' in his personality if things would have gone differently.


I rather liked Jaffen. I don't think she was in love with Kashyk at all but she was quite likely in lust/attracted to him. Playing the role of seducing him to believe in her would have rubbed off on her as well.
I liked Jaffen too He was such a sweet guy, and that goodbye scene at the end of 'Workforce' breaks my heart every time.

I think too that with Kashyk it was much more of an 'events and circumstances' sort of thing combined with a sort of mutual attraction.
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Old April 28 2012, 01:32 AM   #103
Guy Gardener
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

teacake wrote: View Post
I rather liked Jaffen. I don't think she was in love with Kashyk at all but she was quite likely in lust/attracted to him. Playing the role of seducing him to believe in her would have rubbed off on her as well.
You do remember that they were living together?

Although.

it's quite likely that she was programmed to make roots and form connections, so that she would find it more impossible to look for another job on a different part of the planet.

If kathryn was compelled to find a live in boyfriend and couldn't help herself, then maybe Jaffin couldn't have made the cut ordinarily?

Sure she did ask him to join Voyagers crew, but that's the secret gamble of taking home drunk people from night clubs, when they wake up already covered in your issue, they have to justify decisions they can't remember and assume that you would have made the cut if they were sober, which allows you at least one more attempt at sex in the morning before they decided to flee or stay, hangover permitting.

The Prime Directive.

It's only okay to take home "strangers" who are as equally drunk as you are.
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Old April 28 2012, 01:44 AM   #104
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
One thing I got out of the Sullivan relationship is that we actually see what Janeway wants because she programs him. I think its very significant that she says "make him more provocative". Chakotay is really lacking that, it's not a word you'd ever use to describe him. Perhaps if he had been less passive Janeway would have found her resolve to put her Captaincy first a little more challenged.
I agree, Chakotay was just... there a lot of the time. Even when he challenged Janeway she usually won out in the end. You have to wonder if he had had a little more 'oomph' in his personality if things would have gone differently.
The whole Angry Warrior story translated to "I am passive, you are in charge." The first time I saw it I was like.. wth, that's not what she wants in a man. I think that's part of why she values 7 because 7 is provocative. Of course she's way over the top but because of her background Janeway can give her leeway she would never allow if it was, say, Paris speaking to her like that.

The other problem with the Angry Warrior story is.. when is Chakotay ever angry? He didn't even have much of a reaction to the Seska betrayal.. he could have had a huge enraged scene over that. Now if he had told a Peaceful Warrior story it would have made more sense. Yes apparently he found peace as Janeways manservant at the end of the story but it's not like we see an angry past anywhere in his nature.

He's the sort of guy that a woman kind of looks over the shoulder of to find someone more exciting and then wakes up after some years and men have passed and realizes how compatible they really are. I thought it completely believable that they ended up together in the books (and a giant Fuck You to the fans that they immediately killed her after one night).

If Chakotay had been provocative angry maquis warrior with a spiritual side I'd be a total J/C'er. And yet I'm glad too that Voyager isn't a romance but about a leader finding a way home for her people.
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Old April 28 2012, 01:54 AM   #105
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

Voyager is a romance.

It's just a romance about the helmboy and the chief engineer.
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