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Old April 5 2012, 03:26 AM   #46
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
I've read Rich Johnston's review of issue #1 twice now.

I can't really disagree with it.

And I was aware of Bendis' reputation for decompressed/writing-for-the-trade storytelling. It's well known that he took six issues of Ultimate Spider-Man to do what Stan Lee and Steve Ditko did in fifteen pages in Amazing Fantasy #15.
Bendis's decompression has veered to the point of parody imo.
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Old April 5 2012, 06:07 AM   #47
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

Admiral_Young wrote: View Post
It isn't surprising Bendis writing with the X-Men characters is inconsistent because frankly, Bendis doesn't write those characters. .
Then how do you explain his inability to write the Avengers characters.
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Old April 5 2012, 06:14 AM   #48
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Admiral_Young wrote: View Post
It isn't surprising Bendis writing with the X-Men characters is inconsistent because frankly, Bendis doesn't write those characters. .
Then how do you explain his inability to write the Avengers characters.
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Old April 5 2012, 06:37 AM   #49
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

@NerysMyk...I'm baffled at that too
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Old April 5 2012, 09:42 AM   #50
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

Ok, I wanted a chance to re-read this before posting my thoughts.

Yeah, Bendis' de-compression strikes again. I agree with Admiral_Young about Bendis, I AM a fan. Really. But this is getting ridiculous. And Allyn Gibson's comparison to Justice League #1 was spot on.

The characterization of Hope was waaay off and it was irksome. But there was one bit that I liked-- when Hope asked if this is how Professor X trained him, and Cyclops answered, "absolutely".
Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
And that brings up a related point. Cyclops seriously overreacts to the situation as presented for no discernible reason. The only thing I can figure is that the visor he's worn all these years has cut off the circulation to his head.
That was actually my first reaction as well (and I even said that he was being a bit of a jerk in the other thread), but upon a re-read and remembering the ending of the recently concluded Avengers: X-Sanction, I can forgive it. You see, Cyclops knew this was coming. In X-Sanction, Cable showed Cyclops a vision of a wasteland future and told Cyclops that this is what would happen if he let the Avengers take Hope. And he definitely told Cyclops that war with the Avengers was coming. But they convey none of that here, not even on a text page, which is unfortunate for new readers. (Maybe if the story wasn't so de-compressed, they could've told more story.)

This was a problem I had with Schism as well. It seemed totally OOC for me that Wolverine, the man who trained Kitty Pryde to be a ninja at 14 and similarly took Rogue, Jubilee and Armor under his wing, would suddenly be so opposed to letting the older, Danger Room trained kids fight the Sentinel on their own free will. Now, as I later came to find out, this all spun-out of recent developments in Wolverine's solo book, where he killed several of his own illegitimate children before actually finding out that they were his kids. O.K. Fine. That explained a lot. But none of this was brought up in Schism itself. Annoying.

It reminds me of what authors always say in the Lit. forum-- you shouldn't have to read book A to understand book B, because book B should recap all of the pertinent info from book A that the reader requires. Story-telling fail.

The X-Men think that the Phoenix Force is going to usher in a new age of mutantdom. I'm not sure that they're justified in thinking this; if they are, Bendis doesn't lay any groundwork for that.
Not so much the Phoenix Force by itself, but the PF in conjuncture with Hope. This again goes back to what I said about not giving the reader all of the info. After the Scarlet Witch all but wiped-out Mutant-kind, there weren't any mutant births for two years-- until Hope. Hope was the target of every anti-mutant group in existence, including those who had access to information from the future. She was later taken into the future by Cable for her protection. Cable raised Hope, and brought her back to the present when she felt that she was ready. Upon her return and the activation of her powers, new mutants started registering on Cerebra again. Seven, so far, and they all have required Hope's touch in order to stabilize their mutation. So, the X-Men have every reason to believe that she is the future of mutantkind.

Random thoughts--

Wolverine might say that Scott is too close to the Phoenix situation to impartial, but the same definitely holds true of Wolverine himself. Cap should have consulted with Scott as well before just unilaterally making the decision and bring the full-force of the Avengers down on Utopia. Cap's "experts" may have given him some bad advice.

I loved the grin on Namor's face when he said that Cyclops was going to force Cap's hand. Seems like he's ready for a little "Imperious Rex-ing".

Interesting that there was not a single sign of Storm in this issue. Not even on the battle-lines page, where she should be next to Wolverine and Beast. In this un-lettered preview page from New Avengers #24, we see bailing on the Avengers in what would appear to be the pre-mission briefing on the Utopia invasion. If the Avengers somehow kept her from returning to Utopia or warning Cyclops, then that's going to put me more in the X-Men camp than I am currently already leaning.

Overall, like Rich said in the review, not a great comic, but not really a bad one either. I am still looking forward to seeing how this all plays out.
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Old April 5 2012, 09:57 AM   #51
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

It has been interesting that since Storm has joined "Avengers" back I think with issue 17 or 18 she has done pretty much nothing. I almost think this was done now just to have another X-Men on the team.

Namor had that grin though because he has first hand knowledge of how Captain America thinks, same with Scott now. He knew the inevitable conclusion. Imperius Rex indeed!!!

I do see the point earlier about both men acting like jerks, really though that is the point I'm afraid. This and Schism have been about opposing view points. As I have attempted to explain (badly I guess) Scott's problem is that he has become so damn stubborn and one sided on his viewpoint that he has begun to ignore everyone, and I do mean everyone. He's almost a borderline villain here. I honestly would not be shocked if Cyclops became the next big Marvel villain out of this event. I know that would piss off Cyclops fans but it seems to me since Marvel refuses to continue evolving his character beyond this "General" persona of his that is the only logical conclusion. I've also seen some speculation that Scott could die at the end of AVX. I honestly don't know what is going to happen at the end of this thing, and this is one of the things that excites me about it.
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Old April 5 2012, 10:41 AM   #52
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

Admiral_Young wrote: View Post
As I have attempted to explain (badly I guess) Scott's problem is that he has become so damn stubborn and one sided on his viewpoint that he has begun to ignore everyone, and I do mean everyone.
Oh, no, I got your point and even agree with it. I still think "borderline villain" is a stretch. Honestly, if Scott is a border-line villain, then how would you describe, say, the Punisher? Or even Wolverine at times? Iron Man during his "Armor Wars"? (Or even "Civil War") The tunnel-vision thing is indeed bad, but hardly villainous at this point. Obsessive, I grant you, but there has been no actual villainy yet.

And let's remember acouple of things that probably fuel his tunnel-vision-- for the most part in all this, he has been right. He was right that Hope was important and must be protected at all costs, despite the doubts of his peers. He was right that Hope's return would re-ignite the mutant race, albeit at a slower than prefered pace. And in X-Sanction, he has seen the future and what he believes to be the consequenses of failure.

I mean, it's pretty obvious that Scott's being set up for some kind of fall, I just object to the "villain" label.
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Old April 5 2012, 01:24 PM   #53
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

Now, as I later came to find out, this all spun-out of recent developments in Wolverine's solo book, where he killed several of his own illegitimate children before actually finding out that they were his kids. O.K. Fine. That explained a lot. But none of this was brought up in Schism itself. Annoying.
WHAT?! I didn't read that anywhere! That totally changed Wolvie's motivations, but they've never mentioned that one in Schism or "Wolverine and the X-Men"! That is annoying.

I would not mind Cyclops dying at the end of AVX, I really don't like where they've taken the character since Grant Morrison started it all.
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Old April 5 2012, 02:00 PM   #54
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

Turtletrekker wrote: View Post
Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
And that brings up a related point. Cyclops seriously overreacts to the situation as presented for no discernible reason. The only thing I can figure is that the visor he's worn all these years has cut off the circulation to his head.
That was actually my first reaction as well (and I even said that he was being a bit of a jerk in the other thread), but upon a re-read and remembering the ending of the recently concluded Avengers: X-Sanction, I can forgive it. You see, Cyclops knew this was coming. In X-Sanction, Cable showed Cyclops a vision of a wasteland future and told Cyclops that this is what would happen if he let the Avengers take Hope. And he definitely told Cyclops that war with the Avengers was coming. But they convey none of that here, not even on a text page, which is unfortunate for new readers. (Maybe if the story wasn't so de-compressed, they could've told more story.)
That's exactly it. The old rule of thumb -- "Every issue is someone's first issue" -- just doesn't seem to apply any more to comics.

But since this is being written for the trade, the kind of backstory that you just gave will be given somewhere later down the road because the story can be paced differently. Imagine that Cap's been captured, he says, "I thought I was making a reasonable request. We know the Phoenix is coming. We know it wiped out a planet. Can't you see the bigger picture?" And then Cyclops could fill in the backstory of X-Sanction. Suddenly you have the reveal -- Cyclops isn't being an unthinking jerk, he just knows more than Captain America.

Trade pacing is bad.
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Old April 5 2012, 08:02 PM   #55
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

The Wolverine solo books I've kind of ignored, even with the main one written by Aaron. I kind of look at them as almost self contained entities.
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Old April 5 2012, 08:40 PM   #56
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

You'd think Cap would consult with someone who has Phoenix Force experience. Like say, Rachel Summers.
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Old April 5 2012, 08:54 PM   #57
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

I'd talk to Rachel then talk to Logan if I were Cap going to the school. One of the few things I did like about the book was Steve's conversation with Logan. Very different from the one he had with Scott, who has become bullish. The look on Logan's face after Cap asked him if he could count on him was interesting. I wonder if they'll pull a Spider-Man on Logan and have him switch sides? This is an interesting conundrum. Logan has been all about loyalty to the mutant community, even with the Schism, yet he has also had a long loyalty to Captain America, a man whom he respects and admires. Spider-Man switched sides in Civil War because he felt in part he'd been lied to and had secrets kept from him by Tony and the others, men he respected and trusted. Logan's loyalty to the mutant community could come into play here at some point, same with Storm's, especially since they're both Avengers who are on the separate sides of the Schism coin. I've seen it speculated that the Schism could end during this event as well which would be too bad.
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Old April 5 2012, 09:37 PM   #58
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

Mr Light wrote: View Post
Now, as I later came to find out, this all spun-out of recent developments in Wolverine's solo book, where he killed several of his own illegitimate children before actually finding out that they were his kids. O.K. Fine. That explained a lot. But none of this was brought up in Schism itself. Annoying.
WHAT?! I didn't read that anywhere! That totally changed Wolvie's motivations, but they've never mentioned that one in Schism or "Wolverine and the X-Men"! That is annoying.
Yup. The Mongrels. And apparently, the end of the "Mongrels" arc syncs up perfectly with the begining of "Schism". Given that The Mongrels arc, Schism and WatXM all have the same writer, you would think that there would be some acknowledgement of it somewhere in the narrative.

Admiral_Young wrote: View Post
The Wolverine solo books I've kind of ignored, even with the main one written by Aaron. I kind of look at them as almost self contained entities.
Agreed. There is just too much frickin' Wolverine out there.
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Old April 6 2012, 06:46 AM   #59
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

New Avengers 24 is the only AvX related title out next week.

The previous preview I posted for this was unlettered. This one shows the same scene, but is lettered.
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Old April 6 2012, 07:14 AM   #60
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

Looks like Storm has made her decision early, and Carol is the voice of reason in the room. Her assessment of Scott is correct. He isn't going to just let them extract Hope given all he has done to project her lol. I really can't stand Bendis right now. I'm not surprised he was named one of the writers given his status as an Architect and the fact that he has seeded how we have got to this point so far, but I'm becoming more and more annoyed with his work.
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