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Old October 3 2012, 09:44 PM   #421
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

Nova served no purpose at all. you could have put Cannonball in his place and no one would know the difference. the back up stories in the AvX VS book were good. at least they acknowledge that some of the results were lame. i'm just glad that AvX is over and we can move on.
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Old October 3 2012, 11:52 PM   #422
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

On the whole I really enjoyed the whole AVSX saga.... BUT the final issue was HORRIBLY disappointing. It was just... there. The most uninteresting and unimaginative possible conclusion.



So, on the whole, I think this was the best crossover since Civil War, but man what a disappointing ending!
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Old October 4 2012, 12:18 AM   #423
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

I don't understand why Cyclops was where he was at end?

He was possessed.

His judgement was impaired.

that was the entire point of why he tried to sweep that Winter Soldier stuff under the table... And anything that happened in any other week.

For gods sake JARVIS was once their dread nemesis the Crimson Cowl!

But everyone got over that well.
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Old October 4 2012, 01:20 AM   #424
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
I don't understand why Cyclops was where he was at end?

He was possessed.

His judgement was impaired.

that was the entire point of why he tried to sweep that Winter Soldier stuff under the table... And anything that happened in any other week.

For gods sake JARVIS was once their dread nemesis the Crimson Cowl!

But everyone got over that well.
The problem is that Cyclops wasn't posessed for most of thetime, he even says as much, saying that he couldn't remember much after a point. He was in control when the Phoenix 5 took over the world, and hunted the Avengers. He probably lost control around the time him and Emma were the last two left. So, killing Xavier was out of his control, but he did a lot of bad things before being truly possessed by the Phoenix. I'd say you can't blame him for Xavier, but you can blame him for a lot of stuff that happened leading up to that, more than enough to put him in a cell.

Overall, AvX was ok, not reat but better than Dark Reign or fear itself. I do really like that the whole "mutants are an endangered species" thing is done. It was an interesting storyline for awhile, but it had pretty much run its course.
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Old October 4 2012, 01:27 AM   #425
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

Well knowing what happened and having even partial control while that happened?

Scott chose to create a police state that executed those who opposed his point of view?

He lost it well early on.
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Old October 4 2012, 01:50 AM   #426
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

Scott Summers was right.

If the Avengers had worked together with the X-Men in the first place, none of this fighting would have happened. What exactly were Scott's crime? Outside of killing the Professor, Scott only became Dark Phoenix after the Avengers attacked him for the 80th time. The Avengers railed against Scott but they were the ones who instigated this entire conflict. They were the ones who split up the Phoenix and allowed Scott access to their powers. In the end, they pretty much stole his idea about using Hope against the Phoenix.

I don't agree with Scott's Peace at Gunpoint Utopia that he created. But he brought about world peace, something the Avengers never did. As far as I'm concerned, Scott was the real hero of this story. The Avengers, especially Cap and Logan, were just part of the problem.
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Old October 4 2012, 02:00 AM   #427
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

What exactly were Scott's crime?
Just off the top of my head, he has been running his own black ops hit squad to assassinate people, created a secret prison to lock people up without trial and threatened to murder the mayor of San Francisco for trying to put the safety of her city above his agenda.
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Old October 4 2012, 02:04 AM   #428
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

He claimed eminent domain on the entire planet.

Stopping war requires the destruction of a lot of infrastructure.

Feeding everyone requires a lot of theft and upending economic rules of scarcity that control the economy.

He bullied every country on the plant to create his global utopia which was unsustainable without the constant presence of the Phoenix... And how many centuries, decades, months, weeks days until he got bored and wandered off creating a collapse of his brave new world?
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Old October 4 2012, 02:07 AM   #429
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

Hound of UIster wrote: View Post
What exactly were Scott's crime?
Just off the top of my head, he has been running his own black ops hit squad to assassinate people, created a secret prison to lock people up without trial and threatened to murder the mayor of San Francisco for trying to put the safety of her city above his agenda.
I doubt that that was on the table.

Utopia was a Sovereign State.

World leaders are supposed to be up to that sort of shit.
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Old October 4 2012, 02:22 AM   #430
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

Hound of UIster wrote: View Post
What exactly were Scott's crime?
Just off the top of my head, he has been running his own black ops hit squad to assassinate people, created a secret prison to lock people up without trial and threatened to murder the mayor of San Francisco for trying to put the safety of her city above his agenda.
He shut down that black ops team and St. Wolverine the Avenger started it up again. Not that I disagree with what either of them did there.

I don't think any of that stuff was on the table here though.
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Old October 4 2012, 02:28 AM   #431
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

DarthPipes wrote: View Post
Scott Summers was right.

If the Avengers had worked together with the X-Men in the first place, none of this fighting would have happened. What exactly were Scott's crime? Outside of killing the Professor, Scott only became Dark Phoenix after the Avengers attacked him for the 80th time. The Avengers railed against Scott but they were the ones who instigated this entire conflict. They were the ones who split up the Phoenix and allowed Scott access to their powers. In the end, they pretty much stole his idea about using Hope against the Phoenix.

I don't agree with Scott's Peace at Gunpoint Utopia that he created. But he brought about world peace, something the Avengers never did. As far as I'm concerned, Scott was the real hero of this story. The Avengers, especially Cap and Logan, were just part of the problem.
Yup. If Cap hadn't come to Utopia looking for a fight, if he hadn't invaded the X-Men's home without a warrant or any real justification, if he hadn't taken the advice of a loon with a grudge against Cyclops, if Iron Man hadn't split up the Phoenix, none of this would have happened.

Now, after the Phoenix Force split into the Phoenix Five, all bets were off. At that point, I thought that it was OOC for the X-Men, who should've known better, to just fall in line with Cyclops they way they did. But for that matter, the whole AvX story was just a series of OOC behaviour from characters that should've known better.

It's a shame, Allyn, that you are going to skip Consequences. I feel, with Kieron Gillen (and only Kieron Gillen) providing the story, that it will be much better than the event itself. Gillen's AvX crossovers in Uncanny X-Men certainly were.

There is certainly some hipocracy here where Cyclops is involved. Wanda, Bucky, Iron Man, Daredevil, even Wolverine himself have all commited acts that should have given them prison time over the years, yet all is forgiven for them. If Jean (the adult Jean, that is) were to re-appear tomorrow, there would be a party thrown in her honor, but she did a lot worse as the Phoenix and the X-Men always defended her against the Shi'ar and such.
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Old October 4 2012, 02:35 AM   #432
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

Turtletrekker wrote: View Post
DarthPipes wrote: View Post
Scott Summers was right.

If the Avengers had worked together with the X-Men in the first place, none of this fighting would have happened. What exactly were Scott's crime? Outside of killing the Professor, Scott only became Dark Phoenix after the Avengers attacked him for the 80th time. The Avengers railed against Scott but they were the ones who instigated this entire conflict. They were the ones who split up the Phoenix and allowed Scott access to their powers. In the end, they pretty much stole his idea about using Hope against the Phoenix.

I don't agree with Scott's Peace at Gunpoint Utopia that he created. But he brought about world peace, something the Avengers never did. As far as I'm concerned, Scott was the real hero of this story. The Avengers, especially Cap and Logan, were just part of the problem.
Yup. If Cap hadn't come to Utopia looking for a fight, if he hadn't invaded tjhe X-Men's home without a warrant or any real justification, if he hadn't taken the advice of a loon with a grudge against Cyclops, if Iron Man hadn't split up the Phoenix, none of this would have happened.

Now, after the Phoenix Force split into the Phoenix Five, all bets were off. At that point, I thought that it was OOC for the X-Men, who should've known better, to just fall in line with Cyclops they way they did. But for that matter, the whole AvX story was just a series of OOC behaviour from characters that should've known better.

It's a shame, Allyn, that you are going to skip Consequences. I feel, with Kieron Gillen (and only Kieron Gillen) providing the story, that it will be much better than the event itself. Gillen's AvX crossovers in Uncanny X-Men certainly were.

There is certainly some hipocracy here where Cyclops is involved. Wanda, Bucky, Iron Man, Daredevil, even Wolverine himself have all commited acts that should have given them prison time over the years, yet all is forgiven for them. If Jean (the adult Jean, that is) were to re-appear tomorrow, there would be a party thrown in her honor, but she did a lot worse as the Phoenix and the X-Men always defended her against the Shi'ar and such.
Excellent post. I agree.
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Old October 4 2012, 02:53 AM   #433
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

THe serious was simply put utter crap, its built on teh foundation of the Phoenix force being a force of destruction.

That is utterly a lie. THe Phoenix force is not nor has it ever been portrayed (at least until quite recently) as a force of destruction.

THe Phoenix entity, as been sentient during a brief period while Rachel healed, and it never wanted to cause harm.

Just because a Jean Grey wo was driven insane by Mastermind used the Phoenix force as a tool that could cause harm. But only after being altered by mental manipulation from another.

Rachel who had a terrible, brutal life when she briefly had the full Phoenix force, never lost control.

We have had people who were insane who had it, people who were power hungry who had it and they used the force and it caused damage, but the force in and of itself is not out to cause harm.

Since the book's basically utterly ignored this, the whole premise collapses.

Let alone, the idea, the very idea that people could choose whom the Phoenix force would bond to. Laughable.

That it would pass over Rachel, Or that Rachel even had the ability to deny it, is laughable.

Why the hell is it so hard for writers to pay attention to the history of their own universe.

Especially with all the numerous ways there are now to get a large amount of backstory and in a quick period of time. Its not excusable.
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Old October 4 2012, 02:57 AM   #434
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

[QUOTE=Turtletrekker;7052398]
DarthPipes wrote: View Post

There is certainly some hipocracy here where Cyclops is involved. Wanda, Bucky, Iron Man, Daredevil, even Wolverine himself have all commited acts that should have given them prison time over the years, yet all is forgiven for them. If Jean (the adult Jean, that is) were to re-appear tomorrow, there would be a party thrown in her honor, but she did a lot worse as the Phoenix and the X-Men always defended her against the Shi'ar and such.
except that Bucky did actually spend some time in jail.
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Old October 4 2012, 03:06 AM   #435
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Re: Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

mswood wrote: View Post
THe serious was simply put utter crap, its built on teh foundation of the Phoenix force being a force of destruction.

That is utterly a lie. THe Phoenix force is not nor has it ever been portrayed (at least until quite recently) as a force of destruction.

THe Phoenix entity, as been sentient during a brief period while Rachel healed, and it never wanted to cause harm.

Just because a Jean Grey wo was driven insane by Mastermind used the Phoenix force as a tool that could cause harm. But only after being altered by mental manipulation from another.

Rachel who had a terrible, brutal life when she briefly had the full Phoenix force, never lost control.

We have had people who were insane who had it, people who were power hungry who had it and they used the force and it caused damage, but the force in and of itself is not out to cause harm.

Since the book's basically utterly ignored this, the whole premise collapses.

Let alone, the idea, the very idea that people could choose whom the Phoenix force would bond to. Laughable.

That it would pass over Rachel, Or that Rachel even had the ability to deny it, is laughable.

Why the hell is it so hard for writers to pay attention to the history of their own universe.

Especially with all the numerous ways there are now to get a large amount of backstory and in a quick period of time. Its not excusable.
Rachel's time as the Phoenix seems to have been completely ignored in this series. Only in the Avengers Academy tie-in noted that Jean was manipulated into becoming Dark Phoenix.

Having multiple writers on this "event" didn't help but they all wrote Captain America like a gigantic douche. He came across a lot like the villain of this series.
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