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Old August 26 2012, 02:15 PM   #376
Judith Sisko
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Kirsten Beyer wrote: View Post
Okay folks...

I suspect the discussion of this novel, like those that have preceeded it, will generate a fair amount of spirited debate. As I have said, many times before, everybody is entitled to their opinions.

<snip>

Best,
Kirsten Beyer
Kirsten, thank you, once again, for your patience and your eloquence. I, for one, am excited to read this story, the next installation of your wonderful "re-launch re-launch."
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Old August 26 2012, 02:24 PM   #377
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Forevertj wrote: View Post
Janeway is Voyager. Voyager has no other character as compelling or as commanding as her.
Many would disagree. I did a search for online polls of favorite Voyager characters, and in the vast majority of them, the top vote-getter is the Doctor, usually by a wide margin. Seven and Janeway usually split second and third place, with Seven edging out Janeway for second in some:

http://www.trekunited.com/community/...howtopic=17410
http://www.quibblo.com/quiz/bOFElxZ/...ger-Characters
http://www.misterpoll.com/polls/5316/results

And Janeway edging out Seven in just as many:

http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/1...ager-Character
http://www.dorksandlosers.com/2011/0...as-the-doctor/
http://www.proprofs.com/polls/result...ager-character

I did find one poll where Seven led with more than twice as many votes as the Doctor, and Janeway came fourth after "Other." And here's one where she came in fourth after Chakotay. Here's a weird one from a BBS I'm actually a member of: Tom is first, then Chakotay, then the Doctor, then Seven and B'Elanna tied for fourth, then Janeway and Kes tied for sixth.

The only poll I found where Janeway comes close to winning is from this very BBS -- but even in this community with its clique of dedicated Janeway loyalists, the captain still loses to the Doctor by one vote and edges out Seven by only two. But I didn't find a single poll anywhere on the Internet (at least, not in the first few pages of results for the Google search terms "Voyager favorite character poll") where Janeway was voted the most popular character. In every single poll, Janeway is less popular than the Doctor, often by a wide margin, and in the majority of polls (60% of those I listed), she's less popular than Seven, though usually by a narrow margin.

Based on statistics I compiled for a Star Trek Magazine article a few years ago, I'd say that Janeway was the primary focus of more episodes than any other single character, but only a bit more than a third of the episodes overall revolved principally around her. Seven had the second-highest number of focus episodes during the seasons she was on the show, by a pretty close margin to Janeway, but if you consider all seven seasons overall, the Doctor came in second to Janeway for the most focus episodes. So the producers' focus on Janeway exceeded the audiences' preference for her, but she was still just one of the top three leads. Like TNG and DS9 before it, Voyager was designed to be an ensemble show, not a star vehicle for a single lead. They did try to keep the captain as the anchor of that ensemble, but the real breakout stars and audience favorites were the Doctor and Seven. (Which is kind of a replay of what happened on TOS. That was supposed to be a star vehicle for Shatner, since that's how shows worked back then, but Spock was the character audiences fell in love with. Trek fans love the outsider characters.)
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Old August 26 2012, 03:15 PM   #378
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Christopher wrote: View Post
I did a search for online polls of favorite Voyager characters, and in the vast majority of them, the top vote-getter is the Doctor, usually by a wide margin. Seven and Janeway usually split second and third place, with Seven edging out Janeway for second in some
Seven wins over Janeway in the action figure stakes, too. The first 4.5" Janeway only got one release (all other captains got multiple figures in various clothing and hairstyles), with the limited "Flashback Janeway" being a very late addition: my own (winning) suggestion for a NewForce Comics exclusive. (More Doctors and Neelixes were made than the rarer Janeway and Kes figures, IIRC.)

However, Seven of Nine was available in 4.5" in numerous waves of figure sets: in both her half-transformed Borg state ("The Gift"), and silver jumpsuit, then brown, then plum, and then cobalt jumpsuits.

In the 9" size, again there was one Janeway and yet multiple Sevens.
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Old August 26 2012, 03:30 PM   #379
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

^Interesting data. You'd think there would've been more Janeway figures, since she had a reasonable number of varying looks. There's the bun hairstyle vs. the shorter hairstyle, there's her loose-hair-and-nightgown look from early seasons (which I found pretty attractive), there's her Gothic-holonovel governess look, her Fair Haven look, her Queen Arachnia look, her "Killing Game" 1940s outfit, Borg Janeway, elderly Admiral Janeway, and various others. She certainly had more hairstyles to choose from than Picard or Sisko. So the lack of Janeway action figure variants is telling.

How many Doctor action figures are there? He generally maintained a consistent look, but he had some variant outfits on the holodeck, like the President of Earth in "Bride of Chaotica!," the local priest in "Spirit Folk," the android version in "Living Witness," etc. Oh, and the Emergency Command Hologram look from season 7.
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Old August 26 2012, 04:43 PM   #380
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

I had the good fortune of finding The Eternal Tide at my local B&N last night and been reading it all morning. Now that I've come up for a bit of air , what I really love about this book is not that Janeway is back -- granted, I am thrilled she is back -- but the journey of how and why she is back. I am thoroughly enjoying this well-crafted, intricate story. Thank you, Ms. Beyer, for writing such a fun journey.
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Old August 26 2012, 05:08 PM   #381
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Forevertj wrote: View Post
Actually I believe it did have to happen. I also don't believe The Eternal Tide is a story Kirsten wanted to tell. I think it was a story she was told to tell by Pocket Books. The decision to kill off the central character of the entire series was a major mistake and by bringing her back to life they are acknowledging that they made a mistake.


Janeway is Voyager. Voyager has no other character as compelling or as commanding as her. Chakotay is no Will Riker. TNG Could survive with Will Riker as a captain, Voayger cannot survive without Janeway. I believe they knew this from the begining, which is why they gave themselves an out from the begining by involving the Q with her death. The was the safety net that they would use if fan reaction was too negative. It was, and she is back.


In the Acknowledgements of this book, Mrs. Beyer wrote the following, "I cannot help but fear that some will see this story as a failure of nerves and others, most unwisely, as a vindication of the narrow constraints they would see put on all Trek literature".

So what she is basically saying is, I was told to bring her back, but I am not saying so.


Or, "People think I got nervous and frightened and that is why I brought her back".

Also, If you think they made me do it, you are wrong, I wanted to do it all along.


It reminds me of the old situation of employment, " You can't fire me, because I quit".


we know that to be sour grapes in most instances. There is also the old dating situation, "I dumped her, she didn't leave me".


I think she is being extremely patronizing and disingenuous by suggesting that people like me who think Janeway was brought back because pocket Books demanded that she do so are wrong. No, we are not wrong. Janeway is back despite the fact the you killed her Mrs. Beyer. You made a mistake and the bosses called you on it. Accept it and don't employ straw mans, gratuitous assertions and semantics to avoid the facts of the situation.


It is not wrong for us as fans to insist that the captains stay alive. Killing Kirk was a huge error and he too was brought back. It is just this simple, you do not kill the captain unless you are ending the series permanently. You cannot continue on in print without the captain.


In Return of the Jedi at a early test screening, Han Solo and Lando Calrissian were killed flying out of the Death Star. The Falcon didn't make it and audience practially rioted and as a result, they were allowed to escape the explosion in the final cut of the film, proving that you do NOT kill the captain, and Han Solo is nowhere near as important to Star Wars as Janeway is to Voyager. She is more along the lines of Luke and vader in terms of importance.


If Janeway had not been brought back as the fans demanded, the books would have stopped selling. The only reason I believe that they continued to do ok was the carrot of Janeway being dangled over the fans' heads, knowing that sooner or later she would return and they would continue to begrudgingly read the series knowing she would be back. Without that little nudge, the fans would have vanished. All of this is my opinion and can be disagreed with hopefully without arguing. I enjoy discussions, but I do not enjoy arguments.


Star Trek Voayger isn't "plenty of series". It is the story of a crew led by a captain named Kathryn Janeway, the first female captain in the history of Star Trek and as such, indespensable. She is one of a kind and that makes her survival a must because when she dies, Star Trek goes back to being the all boy's club. Gene would never have wanted that. He wanted all races and genders to be equal in his future utopian view of humanity. He would have never allowed her to be killed. Spock came back under his watch. He knew you don't kill the big guns.



I love Voyager more than the TOS and I know that is an oddity, but that is what I like and just like the TOS, the Captain is still alive. They keep putting out books with Kirk in them as if Generations never happened. Good move.
Kirsten did NOT kill Kathryn. Peter David did in Before Dishonor and Margaret Clark did in her decision as editor to allow him to do so. Kirsten has been a gem to those of us who enjoy the Voyager Relaunch-Relaunch. I wanted Janeway back as bad as you do but even if she didn't come back the new Voyager novels are excellent.

Kirsten was in between a rock and a hard place in this situation. She was damned if she did and damned if she didn't. There were two very vocal groups who had an opinion on whether to bring Janeway back. She listened to both sides and had to hear a lot over the last few years.

Now I have never met Ms. Beyer or know her personally but I, as Dr.McCoy might say, would bet real money that the reason she wrote Janeway into the Eternal Tide novel and brought her back was not because she was forced to. And maybe even not because she wanted to...but because there a great story that inspired her to do so. As a writer myself I know that true inspiration for a story comes from within. When it's forced a story falls flat and isn't very good by my own standards. I bet it's the same with her.

Yes, I'm guilty, I was a part of the Bring Back Janeway crowd and I am not ashamed to admit it. Call me a crazy kook if you want but I now claim that Kirsten is my favorite Trek author not because she brought Kathryn back but because she brought her back well. The things you said about her above are unjustified.

That and she's a damned good author.
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Old August 26 2012, 05:15 PM   #382
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Halliwell wrote: View Post
Forevertj wrote: View Post
Actually I believe it did have to happen. I also don't believe The Eternal Tide is a story Kirsten wanted to tell. I think it was a story she was told to tell by Pocket Books. The decision to kill off the central character of the entire series was a major mistake and by bringing her back to life they are acknowledging that they made a mistake.


Janeway is Voyager. Voyager has no other character as compelling or as commanding as her. Chakotay is no Will Riker. TNG Could survive with Will Riker as a captain, Voayger cannot survive without Janeway. I believe they knew this from the begining, which is why they gave themselves an out from the begining by involving the Q with her death. The was the safety net that they would use if fan reaction was too negative. It was, and she is back.


In the Acknowledgements of this book, Mrs. Beyer wrote the following, "I cannot help but fear that some will see this story as a failure of nerves and others, most unwisely, as a vindication of the narrow constraints they would see put on all Trek literature".

So what she is basically saying is, I was told to bring her back, but I am not saying so.


Or, "People think I got nervous and frightened and that is why I brought her back".

Also, If you think they made me do it, you are wrong, I wanted to do it all along.


It reminds me of the old situation of employment, " You can't fire me, because I quit".


we know that to be sour grapes in most instances. There is also the old dating situation, "I dumped her, she didn't leave me".


I think she is being extremely patronizing and disingenuous by suggesting that people like me who think Janeway was brought back because pocket Books demanded that she do so are wrong. No, we are not wrong. Janeway is back despite the fact the you killed her Mrs. Beyer. You made a mistake and the bosses called you on it. Accept it and don't employ straw mans, gratuitous assertions and semantics to avoid the facts of the situation.


It is not wrong for us as fans to insist that the captains stay alive. Killing Kirk was a huge error and he too was brought back. It is just this simple, you do not kill the captain unless you are ending the series permanently. You cannot continue on in print without the captain.


In Return of the Jedi at a early test screening, Han Solo and Lando Calrissian were killed flying out of the Death Star. The Falcon didn't make it and audience practially rioted and as a result, they were allowed to escape the explosion in the final cut of the film, proving that you do NOT kill the captain, and Han Solo is nowhere near as important to Star Wars as Janeway is to Voyager. She is more along the lines of Luke and vader in terms of importance.


If Janeway had not been brought back as the fans demanded, the books would have stopped selling. The only reason I believe that they continued to do ok was the carrot of Janeway being dangled over the fans' heads, knowing that sooner or later she would return and they would continue to begrudgingly read the series knowing she would be back. Without that little nudge, the fans would have vanished. All of this is my opinion and can be disagreed with hopefully without arguing. I enjoy discussions, but I do not enjoy arguments.


Star Trek Voayger isn't "plenty of series". It is the story of a crew led by a captain named Kathryn Janeway, the first female captain in the history of Star Trek and as such, indespensable. She is one of a kind and that makes her survival a must because when she dies, Star Trek goes back to being the all boy's club. Gene would never have wanted that. He wanted all races and genders to be equal in his future utopian view of humanity. He would have never allowed her to be killed. Spock came back under his watch. He knew you don't kill the big guns.



I love Voyager more than the TOS and I know that is an oddity, but that is what I like and just like the TOS, the Captain is still alive. They keep putting out books with Kirk in them as if Generations never happened. Good move.
Kirsten did NOT kill Kathryn. Peter David did in Before Dishonor and Margaret Clark did in her decision as editor to allow him to do so. Kirsten has been a gem to those of us who enjoy the Voyager Relaunch-Relaunch. I wanted Janeway back as bad as you do but even if she didn't come back the new Voyager novels are excellent.

Kirsten was in between a rock and a hard place in this situation. She was damned if she did and damned if she didn't. There were two very vocal groups who had an opinion on whether to bring Janeway back. She listened to both sides and had to hear a lot over the last few years.

Now I have never met Ms. Beyer or know her personally but I, as Dr.McCoy might say, would bet real money that the reason she wrote Janeway into the Eternal Tide novel and brought her back was not because she was forced to. And maybe even not because she wanted to...but because there a great story that inspired her to do so. As a writer myself I know that true inspiration for a story comes from within. When it's forced a story falls flat and isn't very good by my own standards. I bet it's the same with her.

Yes, I'm guilty, I was a part of the Bring Back Janeway crowd and I am not ashamed to admit it. Call me a crazy kook if you want but I now claim that Kirsten is my favorite Trek author not because she brought Kathryn back but because she brought her back well. The things you said about her above are unjustified.

That and she's a damned good author.
I'm in agreement with almost all of Halliwells post, and I don't really like Janeway.

I'm starting to think that as both pro and con Janeway corners have been skillfully riled we may have been trolled !
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Old August 26 2012, 05:20 PM   #383
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

I still say that Kirsten's novels served Janeway better in death than most novels or episodes served her in life. A character doesn't have to be alive and on the page to be important to the story and respected by the author, any more than our departed loved ones become any less precious or meaningful to us after they die. There are plenty of stories where the memory or legacy of a dead character is critical to driving the plot. Uncle Ben is a hugely important character in Spider-Man, for instance, and he's important because of his death.

I'm not a fan of resurrections in general, since they can cheapen the idea of death and be a juvenile exercise in wish fulfillment. But given how well Kirsten served Janeway even when she wasn't alive, I'm sure she found a way to bring her back that's meaningful and worthwhile and not just a reset button. Actually I did know this was coming -- Kirsten and I talked, or rather emailed, about it last year -- but I don't know all the specifics of the plot, and my memory of those conversations is a little rusty. So I look forward to seeing how it plays out in the book.
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Old August 26 2012, 06:42 PM   #384
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

And... I got spoiled. I'm surprised it wasn't under spoiler tags. Still, I was kinda expecting it.

Now, who wants to place bets on how long she survives this time? *lol*
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Old August 26 2012, 08:23 PM   #385
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

It would be darkly comical if she had her head blown off on the first page of the next novel...


and then came back in the next...

and was eaten by a targ in the next...

and...
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Old August 26 2012, 08:24 PM   #386
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Harpooned!

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Old August 26 2012, 08:25 PM   #387
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Despite what I said in my last post, I am very curious to see how Janeway comes back, and what will happen to her as the series goes on. So does the return of Janeway mean that Eden is gone?
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Old August 26 2012, 08:40 PM   #388
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

JD wrote: View Post
Despite what I said in my last post, I am very curious to see how Janeway comes back, and what will happen to her as the series goes on. So does the return of Janeway mean that Eden is gone?
I haven't read the book, but my conjectural answer is: Not necessarily. Let's say Janeway is back large and in charge (of the fleet), Eden could resign her commission and go on a quest for her origin. This being a novel series, she could still be tied into the stories (e.g. running into Meegan).

Personally, I like Eden but I would love to see Janeway back. She as Admiral in charge of the fleet exploring the Delta Quadrant seems like the perfect destiny for her.
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Old August 26 2012, 08:43 PM   #389
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Sci wrote: View Post
Madzilla wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
PS Will Janeway be having a baby now?
Oh, please god, no! We already have enough baby-raising going on in the TNG novels! Treklit will end up being wall-to-wall babies!
Because, after all, the majority of real people never raise families.

People crap everyday as well, not thrilling to read about.
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Old August 26 2012, 09:18 PM   #390
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Concerning babies: If Janeway is back, I hope she'll fulfill another destiny.
Three words: Shannon Sekaya Janeway.
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