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Old June 12 2012, 03:38 AM   #316
Christopher
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
I do not consider Janeway's death heroic at all. I can see how some people might consider it as such, but to me she had lost so much of herself in asimilation that there was almost nothing left to sacrifice. She was turned into the very thing that she despised and swore to protect the Federation against, how is that heroic?
Because despite that, at the pivotal moment she was able to reassert her own will and hold back the will of the Borg long enough for the plan to destroy them to work. If she hadn't fought back at the end, then the Borg would've won. If she wasn't heroic because of that, then Picard wasn't heroic when he said "Sleep" at the climax of "The Best of Both Worlds." It's the same principle, except that Picard got off easy.
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Old June 12 2012, 04:07 AM   #317
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Christopher wrote: View Post
Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
I do not consider Janeway's death heroic at all. I can see how some people might consider it as such, but to me she had lost so much of herself in asimilation that there was almost nothing left to sacrifice. She was turned into the very thing that she despised and swore to protect the Federation against, how is that heroic?
Because despite that, at the pivotal moment she was able to reassert her own will and hold back the will of the Borg long enough for the plan to destroy them to work. If she hadn't fought back at the end, then the Borg would've won. If she wasn't heroic because of that, then Picard wasn't heroic when he said "Sleep" at the climax of "The Best of Both Worlds." It's the same principle, except that Picard got off easy.
A valid point, Christopher, but that was also with the aid of Seven of Nine. I still don't see it as heroic, but I suppose in this case that is a difference of opinion. And I will honestly admit that I am a little biased as it is Janeway, so it may be difficult to sway my opinion.
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Old June 12 2012, 04:21 AM   #318
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
I do not consider Janeway's death heroic at all. I can see how some people might consider it as such, but to me she had lost so much of herself in asimilation that there was almost nothing left to sacrifice. She was turned into the very thing that she despised and swore to protect the Federation against, how is that heroic?
Because despite that, at the pivotal moment she was able to reassert her own will and hold back the will of the Borg long enough for the plan to destroy them to work. If she hadn't fought back at the end, then the Borg would've won. If she wasn't heroic because of that, then Picard wasn't heroic when he said "Sleep" at the climax of "The Best of Both Worlds." It's the same principle, except that Picard got off easy.
A valid point, Christopher, but that was also with the aid of Seven of Nine.
And Picard's "Sleep" was with the aid of Data. I'd still call both Captain Picard and Admiral Janeway pretty damn heroic for overcoming mental Borg programming -- which we saw firsthand in Destiny: Lost Souls is incredibly horrific -- to do that.
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Old June 12 2012, 01:00 PM   #319
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
A valid point, Christopher, but that was also with the aid of Seven of Nine. I still don't see it as heroic, but I suppose in this case that is a difference of opinion. And I will honestly admit that I am a little biased as it is Janeway, so it may be difficult to sway my opinion.
Janeway made an almost impossible effort of will out of love for her crewmate and protegee, held back an unstoppable force and willingly sacrificed her life in the process, and thereby saved the Earth and probably the entire Federation from annihilation -- and you don't consider that heroic? I'm hard-pressed to imagine what you would.
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Old June 12 2012, 03:01 PM   #320
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
That being said, I do not hold Janeway responsible for what happened after her assmilation; that was the action of the Borg Collective using her knowledge to break through the Federation's stronghold.
Janeway cannot be held responsible for her actions after her assimilation. However, going into a situation where she had been warned not to go and had no good reason to be was poor judgment. That act of arrogance made possible the actions that followed. Had she listened to Q, or simply had the good sense not to board the cube, none of the following actions would have occurred.

I think I understand why Starfleet likes to keep their admirals behind desks.
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Old June 12 2012, 03:53 PM   #321
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Janeway has more experience with the Borg than anyone else in Starfleet. Her going makes more sense than you're admitting.

Besides, if she sent a gaggle of hapless nobodies over in her sted, wouldn't things have proceeded largely identically, except for the probability that Hapless Nobody Queen wouldn't have been able to stall the Borg at the critical moment, thus dooming Earth?
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Old June 12 2012, 04:35 PM   #322
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Janeway could have remained on the Einstein and provided guidance to the away team on the ship. There is a reason captains aren't supposed to be on boarding parties. If captains should remain away from potentially hazardous situations away from their ship, I'd say all the more admirals shouldn't be on boarding parties. Had hapless nobody been assimilated, the Borg wouldn't have gained access to the critical information in Janeway's brain. Protecting that knowledge is one reason why captains and admirals don't put themselves in hazardous situations. The flag officers hang back, not out of cowardice but because they are needed to direct and because their death or capture would be devastating (as it was).

Back to the heoric acts of Picard and Janeway after their assimilations, I am having difficulty seeing their parts in destroying the Borg as heroic or courageous. I'm not questioning whether either of them ARE heroes but those singular acts, while vital and the right thing to do, don't seem courageous to me.
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Old June 12 2012, 09:42 PM   #323
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Christopher wrote: View Post
Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
A valid point, Christopher, but that was also with the aid of Seven of Nine. I still don't see it as heroic, but I suppose in this case that is a difference of opinion. And I will honestly admit that I am a little biased as it is Janeway, so it may be difficult to sway my opinion.
Janeway made an almost impossible effort of will out of love for her crewmate and protegee, held back an unstoppable force and willingly sacrificed her life in the process, and thereby saved the Earth and probably the entire Federation from annihilation -- and you don't consider that heroic? I'm hard-pressed to imagine what you would.
Okay, I do see your point there. Personally, I do not like how her sacrifice came out of becoming the Borg Queen, and that is probably overshadowing the rest of it. If I look at this completely objectively, despite her assmilation, then yes, it is a heroic sacrifice for her to make. However, it still came with her being turned into the face of the enemy.

In answer to what I find heroic: I find it admirable when people stand for their principles in the face of adversity.

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
That being said, I do not hold Janeway responsible for what happened after her assmilation; that was the action of the Borg Collective using her knowledge to break through the Federation's stronghold.
Janeway cannot be held responsible for her actions after her assimilation. However, going into a situation where she had been warned not to go and had no good reason to be was poor judgment. That act of arrogance made possible the actions that followed. Had she listened to Q, or simply had the good sense not to board the cube, none of the following actions would have occurred.

I think I understand why Starfleet likes to keep their admirals behind desks.
As KingDaniel said, Janeway had an incredible amount of experience with the Borg, which makes sense as to why she went on that mission. What I don't understand is why it was just a science vessel going in to investigate a Borg cube, despite it being believed to be disabled.

Of course she could have just stayed on the Einstein, but that would not be in character for her. Janeway goes into these scenarioes headfirst; she doesn't sit on the sidelines. When she rescued Seven of Nine from the Borg she went into the Borg Unicomplex; she wasn't sitting in the Delta Flyer guiding the away team.
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Old June 12 2012, 10:38 PM   #324
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

That may not be her style, however it is regs. As a flag officer, she doesn't have the liberties she had as captain alone in the DQ. If she is incapable of comprehending that, she shouldn't have been promoted.

I do agree with you that Starfleet should have sent more resources than the Einstein. In that sense, Janeway's being compromised was a failure of the entire admiralty to not alocate proper resources for the mission.
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Old June 12 2012, 10:58 PM   #325
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Really, her biggest mistake was in forgetting that every time she'd faced the Borg in the past, she only won with the crew of Voyager backing her up. Going to the Borg cube to see it herself was understandable and in character, going without Chakotay and crew was not.
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Old June 12 2012, 11:40 PM   #326
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Janeway cannot be held responsible for her actions after her assimilation. However, going into a situation where she had been warned not to go and had no good reason to be was poor judgment.
Was it though? It's stated in "Full Circle", that she had her reasons for doing it, because she didn't want her crew being sent back to the Delta Quadrant, and that, by investigating the cube, she hoped to convince Starfleet Command that such a mission wasn't necessary.
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Old June 12 2012, 11:50 PM   #327
Violet.Phoenix
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
I do agree with you that Starfleet should have sent more resources than the Einstein. In that sense, Janeway's being compromised was a failure of the entire admiralty to not alocate proper resources for the mission.
Exactly, I find it strange that the admirality would underestimate something like that.

Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
Really, her biggest mistake was in forgetting that every time she'd faced the Borg in the past, she only won with the crew of Voyager backing her up. Going to the Borg cube to see it herself was understandable and in character, going without Chakotay and crew was not.
Good point, but then what about the crew of the Einstein? Could it not also be said that they were backing up the Admiral?

Stephen! wrote: View Post
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Janeway cannot be held responsible for her actions after her assimilation. However, going into a situation where she had been warned not to go and had no good reason to be was poor judgment.
Was it though? It's stated in "Full Circle", that she had her reasons for doing it, because she didn't want her crew being sent back to the Delta Quadrant, and that, by investigating the cube, she hoped to convince Starfleet Command that such a mission wasn't necessary.
I remember this, and it feels like Janeway was forced into a sort of corner between trying to keep her old crew safe in the Alpha Quadrant, and pressing forward with the mission. Yes it was a dangerous mission, but if Janeway didn't do it then her crew would have been sent back to the Delta Quadrant - they very place she spent seven years getting them home from.

Yet, they were still sent back there anyways...
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Old June 13 2012, 12:05 AM   #328
Elias Vaughn
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
Really, her biggest mistake was in forgetting that every time she'd faced the Borg in the past, she only won with the crew of Voyager backing her up. Going to the Borg cube to see it herself was understandable and in character, going without Chakotay and crew was not.
Good point, but then what about the crew of the Einstein? Could it not also be said that they were backing up the Admiral?
They were, but they did not have nearly the experience dealing with the Borg that Voyager did. Chakotay insisting he lead the away team or Seven speculating about the cube's capabilities might have saved Janeway's life.

Then again, might not, but she'd have had a better chance with her crew at her side.
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Old June 13 2012, 12:13 AM   #329
Violet.Phoenix
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
Really, her biggest mistake was in forgetting that every time she'd faced the Borg in the past, she only won with the crew of Voyager backing her up. Going to the Borg cube to see it herself was understandable and in character, going without Chakotay and crew was not.
Good point, but then what about the crew of the Einstein? Could it not also be said that they were backing up the Admiral?
They were, but they did not have nearly the experience dealing with the Borg that Voyager did. Chakotay insisting he lead the away team or Seven speculating about the cube's capabilities might have saved Janeway's life.

Then again, might not, but she'd have had a better chance with her crew at her side.
I do agree there, especially in the case of Seven's knowledge of the Borg. Janeway's experience with the Borg pales in comparison to Seven's knowledge and understanding of them.

An interesting though just occurred to me: if Chakotay had lead the away team, and all the team members were male, would there be a Borg King if they were all assimilated?

Somehow I don't think the bald look would suit Chuckles very well.
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Old June 13 2012, 12:30 AM   #330
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Re: Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
An interesting though just occurred to me: if Chakotay had lead the away team, and all the team members were male, would there be a Borg King if they were all assimilated?
No, just a Borg Drag Queen.
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