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Old March 30 2012, 05:53 PM   #31
Forbin
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

I think I've heard it explained that the orange light in the neck is nothing more than a bulb that was dim.
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Old March 30 2012, 06:19 PM   #32
YARN
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
That would depend on how one looks at that episode.

Is that episode part of the same continuity as the rest of the TOS episodes?
I think most of us would say "Yes."

Personally, I would say that the broad strokes are canonical (i.e., this event happened, more or less, as we saw it on the screen), but that some particulars are better off when you don't think about them too much.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
The "James R. Kirk" originates from Gary Mitchell, not Kirk himself from an in-universe POV.

How trustworthy is Mitchell in this case? Was it a deliberate mocking of Kirk or are they on a slightly different continuity than the rest of the TOS series or was it a mistake? If it was a mistake, that again points back to Mitchell's mistake although it would appear that it was deliberate mocking, IMO.
Most of what we get in Star Trek comes in the form of testimony. Even if Kirk told us directly that his middle initial is "T," it might be the case that his middle initial is R (for Rupert) and he is so embarrassed by that name that he quietly changed it). The point is, we have to trust the Kirk is also honest and competent.

Again, fans have worked out many contradictions in testimony on the grounds that they are only apparent contradictions (e.g., Mitchell was wrong or mocking in that moment). And this is fine, but the upshot denies Timo's position that there is no reason to reject Mitchell's "James R. Kirk" on the grounds that it is more unreal (in this case he is allegedly merely confused or mocking) than claims of "James T. Kirk" in the series.
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Old March 30 2012, 06:37 PM   #33
MyClone
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

YARN wrote: View Post
Again, fans have worked out many contradictions in testimony on the grounds that they are only apparent contradictions (e.g., Mitchell was wrong or mocking in that moment). And this is fine, but the upshot denies Timo's position that there is no reason to reject Mitchell's "James R. Kirk" on the grounds that it is more unreal (in this case he is allegedly merely confused or mocking) than claims of "James T. Kirk" in the series.

Dude, seriously, do you need to discuss this philosophical point in more than one thread? Why this need for consistency across explanations of apparent contradiction in Star Trek ... or in Trek Tech threads discussing them? We're having fun here. If you're not, I feel badly for you, but you might want to think about why that is.

Best, MyClone
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Old March 30 2012, 06:42 PM   #34
MyClone
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

Jose Tyler wrote: View Post
I agree. I think it would be primary structural support and a lot of space to move crew back and forth in an evacuation situation. Maybe in between structural support and power conduits there are small (like two chairs and a coffee table small) rooms for meditation, prayer, or a private game of chess by starlight. I think any use by crew would be more a case of clever humans making use of available space than space purposefully engineered for use by crew members.

This is an excellent point. The neck should have access tubes or (depending on which way the gravity "points") stairs of sufficient width to move groups of people rapidly from one hull to the other. That's gonna take up space.

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Old March 30 2012, 08:27 PM   #35
YARN
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

MyClone wrote: View Post
Dude, seriously, do you need to discuss this philosophical point in more than one thread?
1. The point happens to be relevant to the discussion.
2. Everything, in a broad sense "is philosophy" (whenever we discuss right reasoning questions of epistemology and ontology, etc., are unavoidable).

MyClone wrote: View Post
Why this need for consistency across explanations of apparent contradiction in Star Trek ... or in Trek Tech threads discussing them? We're having fun here. If you're not, I feel badly for you, but you might want to think about why that is.

Best, MyClone
I don't know why you think I am not having fun. I assure you I am. Is this question, however, even relevant? Your post seems more like a personal attack than a topical contribution to thread.

If you don't like what I have to say, I am sorry, but you don't have to read what I say.

Cheers, Dude
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Old March 30 2012, 09:29 PM   #36
MyClone
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

YARN wrote: View Post
I don't know why you think I am not having fun. I assure you I am. Is this question, however, even relevant? Your post seems more like a personal attack than a topical contribution to thread.

My mistake; I apologize.

Best, MyClone
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Old March 30 2012, 11:51 PM   #37
Mytran
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

I'm glad the pylon issue has been raised - it's certainly a weird point in the construction of a Starship!

Regarding the in-universe naming of these decks, it only really occurs in three episodes:

Mudd’s Women: Kirk’s cabin is on this deck (apparently) and has a decent stretch of corridor adjoining it. As has been repeatedly pointed out, there is no way to squeeze this all into the pylon (horizontally anyway - thanks Timo for your usual skill in bursting the envelope!)

Enemy Within: Rand’s quarters are blatantly on this deck (G. T. Fisher calls for aid from an intercom) and even more corridor is visible prior to this on Evilkirk’s drunken ramble to her door. Regarding this ramble, why is Evilkirk even here? The presence of Rand’s cabin seems to take him almost by surprise, just a fortunate opportunity to be taken advantage of. I would postulate that he is going back to his cabin and just happens to pass her own along the way. In fact, at this point in the series, “Deck 12” is almost being treated as the main deck of the ship, hardly suitable if that deck were situated in the pylon neck.

Dagger Of The Mind: Here, Van Gelder is spotted on Deck 14, having (apparently) exited the Transporter Room and started roaming the corridors. There is not indication that he ever used a turbolift – if he had, wouldn’t he have gone somewhere more secluded? Or if his ultimate destination was in fact the bridge – why not there? To detour via the pylon neck is an odd choice, even for him!

I agree that odd script references (such as the oft-quoted James R. Kirk) can and indeed should be ignored or (better) explained away in favour of more numerous references. However, three independent scenarios are a little harder to ignore. My suggestion – do not treat the pylon neck’s decks in the same way as the rest of the ship. There is such minimal habitable space there (IMO) that no more than two or three decks max. should be squandered on what amounts to mostly support beams, energy conduits and access gangways. I think the novelisation of TMP had the right approach in describing these small, personal pockets of space for one or two persons to enjoy each others’ company. Certainly far too intimate for a first date with Lenore Karidian!

So, if the lower saucer rim deck is deck 7 (personally I think deck 5 is more accurate but that’s another debate) then the pylon takes on decks 8, 9 and 10, leaving the Engineering hull to begin fresh at deck 11. Deck 12 is then situated slightly down into the secondary hull, plenty of space for everything seen on screen!

P.S.
If the pylon neck decks end at deck 10, this is similar to the lowest of the saucer decks. Maybe the emergency separation actually occurs at the bottom of the pylon instead of the top? This would have the added bonus of keeping all the numbered decks together…

P.P.S.
I just realised, this last bit has been thought of before, in the Star Trek Officer's Manual:


(click for link to full size - thanks to http://www.cygnus-x1.net for this resource)
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Old March 31 2012, 03:48 AM   #38
blssdwlf
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

YARN wrote: View Post
the upshot denies Timo's position that there is no reason to reject Mitchell's "James R. Kirk" on the grounds that it is more unreal (in this case he is allegedly merely confused or mocking) than claims of "James T. Kirk" in the series.
I think if someone other than a hostile called Kirk by "James R. Kirk" it would be more credible as a contradiction to "James T. Kirk". But to me it has no more weight than Kirk being a "Denebian Slime Devil" as intimated by a Klingon from "Trouble With Tribbles".

Deck 12, on the other hand, has no particular contradiction since TOS has shown officers' quarters being moved around the ship for various reasons and also nothing specific pointing to Deck 12 being in the neck.

I am digging the idea that the neck is just a connection where there are no actual decks but a series of crawlways and conduits and supports. Lateral planetary sensors on the "window ports" would also tie into the ship preferring to orbit a planet with one side facing it rather than having the planet directly above or below the ship, IMO
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Old March 31 2012, 05:40 AM   #39
Brown-Eyed Ghoul
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

Forbin wrote: View Post
I like the neck being strictly full of conduits, struts and machinery, and the windows are there as an afterthought so maintenance personnel don't feel too claustrophobic.
Maintenance personnel should be accustomed to working in tight, cramped, windowless spaces. That’s part of their job.

I prefer to think the windows on the neck are there to provide a spectacular view for visiting babes.

Timo wrote: View Post
. . . The best counterindication to that might be that Kirk didn't take Lenore Karidian to such a facility! Instead, we appear to witness an observation gallery next to the shuttlebay, as if that were the best Kirk could hope to offer.
According to the dialogue, it is the observation gallery overlooking the shuttlecraft flight deck. Maybe Kirk wanted to impress Lenore with the size of his shuttlebay.

“All this power, surging and throbbing, yet under control. Are you like that, Captain?” Nudge-nudge, wink-wink.
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Old March 31 2012, 03:47 PM   #40
Forbin
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

If Rand's quarters were on deck 12, why does her door say 3C 46? Hmmm?
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Old March 31 2012, 06:22 PM   #41
Terror Grin
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

Forbin wrote: View Post
If Rand's quarters were on deck 12, why does her door say 3C 46? Hmmm?
Maybe that is a more precise way of locating her cabin for DC purposes. Something like "Pressure Hull 3C, Frame 46."
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Old March 31 2012, 08:33 PM   #42
Mytran
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

Those cabin labels got moved around a lot. Who knows what they actually meant?
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Old April 1 2012, 04:53 AM   #43
mickemoose
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

If you look closely, you will notice that both nacelle pylons also have windows on them - 3 on each pylon, to be exact. The port-to-starboard width of these pylons is about the same as the port-to-starboard width of the neck. It's hard to argue there's any habitable space in the nacelle pylons, other than a maintenance crawlway that leads from engineering up to the nacelles. Yet, like the neck, it has windows which could suggest lighted maintenance alcoves.

I would suspect the innards of the neck to be similar in nature to the interior of the nacelle pylons, only on a larger scale.
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Old April 1 2012, 07:47 AM   #44
YARN
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

mickemoose wrote: View Post
If you look closely, you will notice that both nacelle pylons also have windows on them - 3 on each pylon, to be exact. The port-to-starboard width of these pylons is about the same as the port-to-starboard width of the neck. It's hard to argue there's any habitable space in the nacelle pylons, other than a maintenance crawlway that leads from engineering up to the nacelles. Yet, like the neck, it has windows which could suggest lighted maintenance alcoves.

I would suspect the innards of the neck to be similar in nature to the interior of the nacelle pylons, only on a larger scale.
Which raises another question for those in the know

Given that there are windows on the nacelle struts...

Assuming ( only for the purpose of determining the maximum theoretical internal space there would be ) it's a hollow space in there (e.g., no internal supports or piping, wiring, ducts) , how much room would there be for a person looking out a window?
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Old April 1 2012, 09:41 AM   #45
Mytran
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Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon

The difference between the nacelle strut windows and the pylon neck windows is that the nacelle struts are never lit - making it easy to explain them away as something else (flush vents etc). The pylon neck ones however are lit, and in exactly the same way as the other windows on the ship.
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