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General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

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Old March 11 2012, 08:30 AM   #61
Miss Lemon
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Let's add in flirtation while we're at it. Over the course of five series and eleven movies, past, present and future, short and LTR's, it has to be well over a hundred.
Kirk flirted with everybody: female, male, foam latex. Just watch Tomorrow is Yesterday. The guy just can't help himself.
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Old March 11 2012, 08:35 AM   #62
J. Allen
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
To be fair, portraying a gay person on screen, and doing them justice, is rather difficult.
Really? Quite a number of tv dramas have been doing it as a matter of course since the 1990s, at least. What makes it any harder to "do them justice" than heterosexual characters?
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Old March 12 2012, 12:18 AM   #63
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

Arthur C. Clarke -- I think it was early on in 2061: Odyssey Three -- had a passage where he introduces a long-married couple of respected scientists. The dialogue exchange indicates that this one is a man, then later on you find that the other one appears to be male. Wait, did I read that wrong? Upon review, you realize they're both men, though nobody in the scene (nor the narrator) thought it worth mentioning. Speaking volumes in its subtlety!
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Old March 12 2012, 12:24 AM   #64
Temis the Vorta
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

J. Allen wrote: View Post
To be fair, portraying a gay person on screen, and doing them justice, is rather difficult. Being gay isn't something you can see, which makes it a bit harder to telegraph one's orientation in a visual medium without screwing it up.

That said, if it were up to me, I would have done this: Riker, Troi, and Guinan are discussing something in Ten Forward. In the background, almost at the focus range of the camera, you see a male civilian stand up and greet another male walking up to his table, smiling, kissing him on the lips and then offering him a chair. All the while, Riker, Troi, and Guinan are still focused on the main plot or discussion, and no one comments on anything.

It would be subtle enough, without seeming overt, and would get the point across fairly simply. In that simple 10 second scene, it would be established that homosexuality is present in the Star Trek universe, that it's openly accepted, and that it's a normal type of social acceptance.
Yeah it would have to be presented as No Big Thing.

Which is a Catch-22. If something is No Big Thing, then why write it into a character? What defines characters should be things that generate conflict. Sure, you could have gay characters, fine by me, but that wouldn't really help or hurt the characters, as characters.

But the problem of the broadcast suits being scared of gay characters is no longer a problem because Star Trek can't survive on broadcast anymore. The TV business has changed. It would need to be someplace like AMC or Showtime, where gay characters are no big deal.
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Old March 12 2012, 12:49 AM   #65
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

I look forward to such a Star Trek very much
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Old March 12 2012, 01:15 AM   #66
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

I agree with J's more subtle approach, like the scene mentioned in 10-Forward.
Barring that, I'm almost happier they didn't try, than to have come up with some God-awful "very special episode" with a very special gay character, or Geordi comes out or whatev.
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Old March 12 2012, 01:55 AM   #67
Danoz
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

J. Allen wrote: View Post
To be fair, portraying a gay person on screen, and doing them justice, is rather difficult. Being gay isn't something you can see, which makes it a bit harder to telegraph one's orientation in a visual medium without screwing it up.

That said, if it were up to me, I would have done this: Riker, Troi, and Guinan are discussing something in Ten Forward. In the background, almost at the focus range of the camera, you see a male civilian stand up and greet another male walking up to his table, smiling, kissing him on the lips and then offering him a chair. All the while, Riker, Troi, and Guinan are still focused on the main plot or discussion, and no one comments on anything.

It would be subtle enough, without seeming overt, and would get the point across fairly simply. In that simple 10 second scene, it would be established that homosexuality is present in the Star Trek universe, that it's openly accepted, and that it's a normal type of social acceptance.
Yeah I like this. But I also like the idea of a character being openly gay, honestly. We watched Bashir in Ds9 have no end to his sexual energy, if it were reversed and he were gay would it really be so offensive? I don't think so.
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Old March 12 2012, 02:01 AM   #68
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

Trek was weak on this issue, but there were "moments." Like Riker's love of the woman who is androgynous or the "technically" lesbian kiss in DS9. But, ultimately, the absence of an openly gay character is unfortunate.

I still remember what one of my friends said about this issue:

"It's the 24th century. They already cured homosexuality." --- he was joking (and gay himself)
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Old March 12 2012, 07:54 AM   #69
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

You know something strange is going on when an episode freely mentions a male alien in a marriage with a "co-husband", but still reluctant to actually show a couple holding hands.

But to be fair to Trek, it can be argue that the " Dax kiss" was the scene some fans have been waiting for. A kiss between two same sex people without making an issue of it within the episode.

Maybe it's already happened. Maybe they showed it.

At this point, you gotta ask, who's going to complain about it now anyway?

Trek disavows religious ideology in the 23-24th century and claims humans created paradise on their own. On what basis is anyone going to really get angry at the show over this?

Last edited by Nightdiamond; March 12 2012 at 09:40 AM.
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Old March 12 2012, 08:11 AM   #70
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

In the next Trek I would love to see a gay male couple in a monogamous long-term relationship (already existing when the series begins). They would have the same couple issues to work through and resolve every so often, but they would remain together strengthened by all the challenges they faced. So that they're not seen as stereotypical bed-hopping 'deviants'--they would also be among the Trek minority of people in a happy and committed relationship (so far only the O'Brien's have held that title).
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Old March 12 2012, 08:25 AM   #71
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
But to be fair to Trek, it can be argue that the " Dax kiss" was the scene some fans have been waiting for. A kiss between two same sex people without making an issue of it within the episode.
It always puzzles me how people argue that the "Dax kiss" is not a "lesbian kiss" and how it were actually the heterosexual symbionts doing the kissing.

Technically speaking, the correct label would be "bisexual kiss" I guess. But who cares? We got to see two sane women care for each other and kiss in a very passionate way, and nobody in that episode made a fuss about it. It was exactly what I had been waiting for.
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Old March 12 2012, 08:49 AM   #72
Danoz
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

Miss Lemon wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
But to be fair to Trek, it can be argue that the " Dax kiss" was the scene some fans have been waiting for. A kiss between two same sex people without making an issue of it within the episode.
It always puzzles me how people argue that the "Dax kiss" is not a "lesbian kiss" and how it were actually the heterosexual symbionts doing the kissing.

Technically speaking, the correct label would be "bisexual kiss" I guess. But who cares? We got to see two sane women care for each other and kiss in a very passionate way, and nobody in that episode made a fuss about it. It was exactly what I had been waiting for.
Fair point. But I think this is more what some people are looking for:



It's so engrained into the national psyche to find this repulsive that no producer would take it on. Having a kid brother who is gay and having many friends in theater, this doesn't shock me. Trek led the charge in so many ways on the progressive front, that I think it's fair to say they were weak on the issue of homosexuality.

That doesn't change the fact that I freaking love all Trek, from ToS to Enterprise.
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Old March 12 2012, 09:05 AM   #73
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

Exactly...
Male/male kissing has been seen as something 'repugnant' apparently... but that's probably mostly due to society being ruled by men who have issues with such displays in the first place... but those idiots will actually get all cheery and horned up at the sight of 2 women making out and as such won't make a big deal out of it.

It's high past time for Trek to do a male/male relationship, or at the very least give a subtle (but visible) notion to same sex couples.

I definitely agree with the premise that Archer/Bakula should have been written as a gay character (well, mostly everything could remain the same except he would have a mention of a a previous male interest and in season 4, he'd have sex with a hot male partner and not Erika).

Oh well... if Trek continues as a TV show at some point or in movies, it's possible they will FINALLY do it properly.
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Old March 12 2012, 09:16 AM   #74
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

Whenever I have passionately kissed guys (i used to drink a lot) I've only ever thought two things... "this fuck needs to learn how to shave" or "can't tell the difference".

I read a phrase in a Star trek novel once "Fallout from the Eugenics war" which is to say that supermen have been interbreeding with mundanes since at the very least the, Earth's 1990s... Which explains why they're stronger, faster, smarter and their life spans have more than doubled despite Eugenics being outlawed, that these things cannot happen easily artificially, or wholesale at all.

Khan would have tucked in a mating urge in there with all that "code" which determined superhuman character. it gels with the characteristics of the Supermen to be the best and survie and prevail and... Furuitful and multiply shit, y'know?

Khan might have accidentally made homosexuality a hobby or a party trick because the men and women of the future will rob, kill an defenestrate to make as many babies as possible.

It's possible the reason that they don't talk about homos in the future is because there are none.
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Old March 12 2012, 11:53 AM   #75
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
a gay male couple in a monogamous long-term relationship
While that's one possibility, in a way here you're "doing it too." You want to see gays on the show (good), but you don't want the characters to be basically the same as the non-gay crewmembers on the ship.

stereotypical bed-hopping 'deviants
We see straight doing this, so why would gays be restricted from such activities? A gay character could have a few romances (like the other characters), and even do a bit of bed hopping too.

Just show them like the other characters, nothing different.

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