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General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

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Old March 10 2012, 09:07 AM   #46
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

Dick_Valentine wrote: View Post
I'm sure the gay community would prefer a role model who can act.
That is quite true. Though at this moment in time I would love for them to just acknowledge homosexuals in the Trekverse. They could have made Mayweather gay, no one would ever have known seeing as how he was just a glorified extra (was he was pretty to look at ).

Dick_Valentine wrote: View Post
Still, I remember huge rumours during the time of First Contact that Lt Hawk had a scene when he mentioned a husband that got cut out of the movie, whether that's true or not we'll probably never know I guess.
In my head Hawk is/was gay.
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Old March 10 2012, 04:53 PM   #47
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

The Castellan wrote: View Post
the bible thumpers, since they, at least the Evangelicals, hate the idea of alien life to begin with and would not be big on Trek, anyhow.
I've never found this to be true, most people of faith, including Evangelicals, are fascinated by the possibility of extraterrestrial life. From a Christian perspective, the existence of alien life would be another part of the infinite universe that God created.

And while the Bible is silent about extraterrestrial life in other parts of the universe, there are the Nephilim.

Destructor wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
If gays are a ostracized segment of the over all Federation society ...
This idea seems thoroughly incompatible with the idea of the Federation as presented to us.
Episodes like Measure of a Man, and Drumhead show that the Federation is far from legally perfect. It easy to state out loud "we are diverse is our thoughts," but then exclude those who perhaps fall outside of your narrow ideas of diversity. The Federation accepts anyone who agrees with them, but looks down on those who do not.

Whenever we have seen or heard of marriages, (with the exception of two (?) plural marriages) it's always two heterosexuals (as shown) and never a clearly gay marriage. All the main characters sexualities are heterosexual, if their sexuality is depicted at all. All sexual activity referred to is Star Trek is heterosexual.

If Starfleet possesses a non-gay policy in term of their selection and enlistment policies, this could explain why we're not seeing gays in the Starfleet uniform, and Destructor we're not.

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
I think Trek made allegorical stories relating to homosexuality ...
But when Star Trek has characters who are straight, their sexual orientation is out in the open and isn't concealed behind a "allegory."

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Perhaps because it's not an issue anymore in the 24TH century as pointed out already.
I disagree about it not being an issue, no one discusses the subject. By it's complete absence, "gay subjects" are taboo in their culture.

We never hear Captain Picard giving one of his trademark, pompous, holier than thou, long winded speeches when it comes to gay rights.

In the 24th century, do gays in fact have any rights?

The truth is, I think Trek considers "The Outcast" its contribution towards the subject.
but even there, the J'Niel had two genders and Riker's love interest was a female of that specie, and played by a female actress (Melinda Culea).

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Old March 10 2012, 06:43 PM   #48
MrBorg
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

So why wont they make a dam cute gay couple?
This may sound homophobic, but I wouldn't find that cute. How is two men/girls kissing eachother cute?

Anyway, I agree that there should have been some. But I suppose that wouldn't have been too good for the ratings, due to all the homophobia in the world.
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Old March 10 2012, 07:28 PM   #49
T'Girl
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

MrBorg wrote: View Post
But I suppose that wouldn't have been too good for the ratings
When I was in grade school and the subject of Enterprise came up, the lack of a gay characters was noticed and commented upon. Buffy TVS had two openly lesbian characters, Veronica Mars had gays. Even Joan of Arcadia, a very Christian family drama, had the character of Grace who was obviously attracted to Joan.

Some of my classmates deliberately stopped watching Star Trek solely for this reason, the absence of a gay was persevered of as mean spirited and homophobic on the part of the production team. Certainly having a gay main character would have kept me with the show past the mid third season (on the first run).

Having a gay on TOS would have likely hurt the show. By the time of DS9 and Voyager it was plain unrealistic.

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Old March 10 2012, 07:59 PM   #50
The Castellan
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

This may sound homophobic, but I wouldn't find that cute. How is two men/girls kissing eachother cute?
Let me see.....Tara and Willow, that's one. Captain Jack kissing the Ninth Doctor is another. And that's just two right there, I am sure we can find even more.
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Old March 10 2012, 09:20 PM   #51
Relayer1
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

Dick_Valentine wrote: View Post
They did didn't they? Reading between the lines Garak totally wanted him, but had to settle for Zyal when he wouldn't get over Dax.
And even then he probably only plumped for her because the fact her father would hate the idea was just too tasty for him to pass up.
Perhaps the schism between Dukat and Garak is one of ex-lovers....and perhaps an operative of the obsidian order being caught with a high ranking military official, with a family, was the scandal that got Garak exiled in the first place!
Oh this stuff just writes itself doesn't it!
I don't see Bashir as gay - not sure about Garak.

It's an interesting and complex relationship between them, but I didn't pick up on any sexual overtones - even one sided.
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Old March 10 2012, 09:47 PM   #52
Seven's Alcove
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

^ I believe I read an interview where Andrew Robinson said he deliberately played Garak as bisexual, but I can't find a link for it anywhere.

As for other characters, I genuinely thought Reed on Enterprise was gay. The whole, "I like T'Pol's bum!" thing seemed way to obvious, like he was trying to cover up for something else. Then in the third season I thought he and the MACO leader were going to hook up any second. But I guess I was just reading it completely wrong.
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Old March 10 2012, 10:52 PM   #53
Nightdiamond
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

T'Girl wrote: View Post
The Castellan wrote: View Post
the bible thumpers, since they, at least the Evangelicals, hate the idea of alien life to begin with and would not be big on Trek, anyhow.
I've never found this to be true, most people of faith, including Evangelicals, are fascinated by the possibility of extraterrestrial life.
You'd be surprised at the number of closed minded people who like Trek. Consider what the the producers had to go through in TOS just to get a half a minute interracial kiss scene in.

They were afraid of southern audiences and closed minded types.

From the beginning, Trek's theme is that in the future, there is great diversity and humans have moved past bigotry.

These types know this, and yet still chose to watch and like the show--yet they still want to control the content according to their still held prejudices.

I disagree about it not being an issue, no one discusses the subject. By it's complete absence, "gay subjects" are taboo in their culture.
The idea that's it's not an issue is Trek's escape clause in a way. I don't think it was intentional though.

But the argument for it is, how can you make it an issue if humans don't have a problem with it in the 23d-24th centuries?

The truth is, I think Trek considers "The Outcast" its contribution towards the subject.
but even there, the J'Niel had two genders and Riker's love interest was a female of that specie, and played by a female actress (Melinda Culea).
Yes--it was a relatively safe way of addressing the issue, without stepping on too many toes. The speech at the end is unmistakable.

In a way, it being the 24th century, should be Trek's escape clause- since humans have no prejudices, and all are free, then it should be easier in theory--except when you realized there may be more closed minded types who like Trek too.

Last edited by Nightdiamond; March 10 2012 at 11:03 PM.
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Old March 10 2012, 11:08 PM   #54
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

Seven's Alcove wrote: View Post
As for other characters, I genuinely thought Reed on Enterprise was gay. The whole, "I like T'Pol's bum!" thing seemed way to obvious, like he was trying to cover up for something else. Then in the third season I thought he and the MACO leader were going to hook up any second. But I guess I was just reading it completely wrong.
I always found his worshipping of Archer to go above and beyond the call of duty.

Now if a line had been inserted about Hayes having a husband back home, that would of helped flesh out his character a little more.
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Old March 11 2012, 12:09 AM   #55
Guy Gardener
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

but conversely.

"I'm Gay! Gay! Gay! Gay! Yay, I'm gay!"

(5 minutes later)

"Lieutenant Hawke is dead!"

"Well, it's for the best, after all, he was gay."

"They're so cute when they're young."

"Best to shoot them in the back of the head before they start breeding."

...

You can't establish a role model from a corpse.

Well?

I suppose that's called a martyr?

They're supposed to be useful to the cause.

If the cause is painting Star Trek as homophobic.

Which it is.

But we'll jut keep mum about that.
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Old March 11 2012, 12:58 AM   #56
Dantheman
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

I remember at the time, thinking that episode of Deep Space Nine where Lt. Dax reconnects with a previous lover, treating lesbianism with more decorum than that episode of Roseanne where Mariel Hemingway plays a lesbian who kisses Roseanne (the fact that DS9 didn't have a live studio audience make "WHOOOOOOO!" noises certainly helped).
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Old March 11 2012, 01:43 AM   #57
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

J. Allen wrote: View Post
To be fair, portraying a gay person on screen, and doing them justice, is rather difficult.
Really? Quite a number of tv dramas have been doing it as a matter of course since the 1990s, at least. What makes it any harder to "do them justice" than heterosexual characters?
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Old March 11 2012, 03:43 AM   #58
The Wormhole
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

Seven's Alcove wrote: View Post
Then in the third season I thought he and the MACO leader were going to hook up any second. But I guess I was just reading it completely wrong.
You weren't reading anything wrong. Everyone thought that in the Enterprise forum back when season 3 aired. In fact the last episode Major Hayes appeared in has a lot of moments between him and Reed which could have a double meaning. I think at one point, one of them asks the other "is there a problem with us?"
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Old March 11 2012, 05:22 AM   #59
T'Girl
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
But the argument for it is, how can you make it an issue if humans don't have a problem with it in the 23d-24th centuries?
An argument that falls apart when you see ...

two people casually discussing a coworker's straight relationship,
or a story about a past romance with the opposite gender,
or a Chief O'Brien's up coming marriage ... to a female,
or Picard's brother and his wife
or Picard's sex hook up on Risa, with Vash (a female),
or ...

You can't say they don't have a problem with gay relationships, because right in front of you is an example of what it like when they actually don't have a problem with something. They very obviously don't have a problem with heterosexual relationships, romances and sexuality, because the characters on the show talk about it and engage in it.

There are absolutely no gay relationships, romances or sex hook ups in the 22nd, 23rd, or 24th centuries. Because at the very least we would hear about it in casual conversations. And yes we do hear casual conversations concerning straights. Beginning in the original two pilots.

And how many relationships did we see/hear about? Let's add in flirtation while we're at it. Over the course of five series and eleven movies, past, present and future, short and LTR's, it has to be well over a hundred.

You can't talk about something that doesn't exist in your life, or people who don't. The out-universe possesses an explanation, but where is the in-universe one? Gays being driven back into the closet (while a upsetting idea) is one possibility. Being "genetically discontinued" is another. Since the majority of the show concerns Starfleet, having gays barred from Starfleet would be another.

Where is the "in-universe" explanation?

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Old March 11 2012, 05:40 AM   #60
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Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Where is the "in-universe" explanation?

All those examples of het relationships you mentioned to show how Trek didn't have a problem with them well..they were mentioned precisely because they were unusual. Everyone not mentioned is gay and since that is the norm in the future a point is made to reference het relationships so the het folk do not feel hard done by.
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