RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,786
Posts: 5,217,528
Members: 24,217
Currently online: 750
Newest member: davestar057

TrekToday headlines

Q Meets NuTrek Crew
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

Pine In Talks For Drama
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

New X-Men: Days of Future Past Trailer
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Nimoy to Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone Comic
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

These Are The Voyages TOS Season Two Book Review
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

Kirk’s Well Wishes To Kirk
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Quinto In New Starz Series
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Star Trek: Horizon Film
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14

Star Trek: Fleet Captains Game Expansion
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 1 2012, 04:35 AM   #151
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

Sci wrote: View Post
Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
Garak was gay. Bashir didn't really seem to be.
Speak for yourself. I'm convinced Julian and Miles had more going on than we the audience ever saw.
Me too. There was that big confession from Miles on how he liked Julian better his wife.. who knows what really went on in the holodeck? The alamo my ass.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 1 2012, 10:26 AM   #152
DAYoung
Commander
 
DAYoung's Avatar
 
Location: Melbourne, AUS
View DAYoung's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

teacake wrote: View Post
This is true DAYoung, but I don't understand it myself. Surely romance is popular?
It is, and that's why there's plenty of it in Star Trek. But it's handled poorly.

Off the top of my head, it's partly to do with the format. The romantic interests are usually one-episode players. So there's no opportunity to develop. Whereas Geordie and Data have years to become buddies.

I also think romance, as opposed to friendship, requires a certain mature honesty about physical relationships, and Star Trek has usually aimed too low for this (in television, if not books).

I can only guess - and I am guessing - that this is partly to do with the conservative culture of US free-to-air television? From afar, it looks like violence is less worrying than sex for many viewers (or that the networks think it is, anyway)
__________________
philosopher & author
www.damonyoung.com.au
Out December 2012: Philosophy in the Garden
DAYoung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 1 2012, 10:53 AM   #153
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

DAYoung wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
This is true DAYoung, but I don't understand it myself. Surely romance is popular?
It is, and that's why there's plenty of it in Star Trek. But it's handled poorly.

Off the top of my head, it's partly to do with the format. The romantic interests are usually one-episode players. So there's no opportunity to develop. Whereas Geordie and Data have years to become buddies.
Yes well, from this dynamic a thousand slash tales were born.

I also think romance, as opposed to friendship, requires a certain mature honesty about physical relationships, and Star Trek has usually aimed too low for this (in television, if not books).

I can only guess - and I am guessing - that this is partly to do with the conservative culture of US free-to-air television? From afar, it looks like violence is less worrying than sex for many viewers (or that the networks think it is, anyway)
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 1 2012, 12:20 PM   #154
DAYoung
Commander
 
DAYoung's Avatar
 
Location: Melbourne, AUS
View DAYoung's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

Well, yes. You could put it that way.
__________________
philosopher & author
www.damonyoung.com.au
Out December 2012: Philosophy in the Garden
DAYoung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 1 2012, 05:43 PM   #155
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

DAYoung wrote: View Post
partly to do with the conservative culture of US free-to-air television? From afar, it looks like violence is less worrying than sex for many viewers
In America society (unfortunately) violence is out in the open and considered part of life, even if you're not personally exposed to it, it's in the news on a daily basis.

Sex on the other hand is still supposed to be "behind close doors." And is not part of polite society.

From afar, it looks
It's different where you are?

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 1 2012, 10:16 PM   #156
DAYoung
Commander
 
DAYoung's Avatar
 
Location: Melbourne, AUS
View DAYoung's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

T'Girl wrote: View Post
It's different where you are
Well, the act itself still happens, for the most part, behind closed doors. But we're a little more relaxed about representations of this act, e.g. on television.
__________________
philosopher & author
www.damonyoung.com.au
Out December 2012: Philosophy in the Garden
DAYoung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 1 2012, 11:08 PM   #157
Ethros
Vice Admiral
 
Ethros's Avatar
 
Location: 1123 6536 5321
Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

Because Trek wasn't a 9pm or later show, it was an earlier "family viewable" show. And Billy Bob Joe's head would explode down in Alabama if he saw two fellas kissing.
Let's face it, simple as
Ethros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 1 2012, 11:10 PM   #158
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

It gets real basic though doesn't it? Why can a man and woman kiss on a family viewable show but not two men?

See we're not talking about SEX ON TV here, just give same sex couples the same family friendly kissing as het couples.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2 2012, 02:59 AM   #159
DAYoung
Commander
 
DAYoung's Avatar
 
Location: Melbourne, AUS
View DAYoung's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

Ethros wrote: View Post
Because Trek wasn't a 9pm or later show, it was an earlier "family viewable" show. And Billy Bob Joe's head would explode down in Alabama if he saw two fellas kissing. Let's face it, simple as
Billy Bob Joe probably has a collection of 'fellas kissing' magazines under his bed.

He just doesn't want his kids seeing it in prime time.
__________________
philosopher & author
www.damonyoung.com.au
Out December 2012: Philosophy in the Garden
DAYoung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2 2012, 09:04 AM   #160
Miss Lemon
Fleet Captain
 
Miss Lemon's Avatar
 
Location: Miss Lemon is chasing dwarves in Middle-earth
Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

DAYoung wrote: View Post
I also think romance, as opposed to friendship, requires a certain mature honesty about physical relationships, and Star Trek has usually aimed too low for this (in television, if not books).
Do you mean they have to show more sex in order to make relationships appear more real? If so, I don't agree. They tried that in ENT and it didn't work. They showed some sex, but it was anything but romantic or mature. In my opinion anyway.

It's not only Trek that has trouble mixing sex and romance in a mature way. I live in a country that has more explicit sex on prime time tv and in movies than violence, but the sex usually doesn't involve any real romance.
__________________
Loyalty, honor and a willing heart... I can ask no more than that - Thorin Oakenshield

Hercule Poirot
: I am an imbecile. I see only half of the picture.
Miss Lemon: I don't even see that.
Miss Lemon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2 2012, 09:19 AM   #161
DAYoung
Commander
 
DAYoung's Avatar
 
Location: Melbourne, AUS
View DAYoung's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

Miss Lemon wrote: View Post
DAYoung wrote: View Post
I also think romance, as opposed to friendship, requires a certain mature honesty about physical relationships, and Star Trek has usually aimed too low for this (in television, if not books).
Do you mean they have to show more sex in order to make relationships appear more real? If so, I don't agree. They tried that in ENT and it didn't work. They showed some sex, but it was anything but romantic or mature. In my opinion anyway.

It's not only Trek that has trouble mixing sex and romance in a mature way. I live in a country that has more explicit sex on prime time tv and in movies than violence, but the sex usually doesn't involve any real romance.
I agree that it's not about showing more sex. It's understanding how to portray real physical relationships in a mature way. The flipside of twee, melodramatic romance is pure physicality, devoid of tenderness.

As I wrote earlier, part of the problem is lack of continuity. Many relationships are too short to be developed in any depth.

But it's also that there's a divide at work: love without the suggestion of carnality, and sex without love. Both are products of a conservative approach, which has trouble dealing with sex in a grown up way.
__________________
philosopher & author
www.damonyoung.com.au
Out December 2012: Philosophy in the Garden
DAYoung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2 2012, 09:21 AM   #162
Bry_Sinclair
Commodore
 
Bry_Sinclair's Avatar
 
Location: Along the border of Talarian space
Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

Miss Lemon wrote: View Post
Do you mean they have to show more sex in order to make relationships appear more real? If so, I don't agree. They tried that in ENT and it didn't work. They showed some sex, but it was anything but romantic or mature. In my opinion anyway.
Well lets face it, all they had in mind for ENT was: "We have a new cast of attractive men and women, how many times a season can we get them in their underwear--or better yet, naked!"

A gay couple in Trek isn't about showing soft core pornography, but having a demographic present in a future where all boundries and bigotry are long since dead and buried. Having a female captain didn't mean she was burning her bra ever other week.

Some recognition for LGBT would be nice is all I'd want to see.
__________________
Avatar: Captain Susanna Leijten, U.S.S. Silverfin NCC-4470, Border Service Third Cutter Squadron
Manip by: FltCpt. Bossco (STPMA)
Bry_Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2 2012, 09:37 AM   #163
Miss Lemon
Fleet Captain
 
Miss Lemon's Avatar
 
Location: Miss Lemon is chasing dwarves in Middle-earth
Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

DAYoung wrote: View Post
As I wrote earlier, part of the problem is lack of continuity. Many relationships are too short to be developed in any depth.
I can see your point and I partly agree, but the fact is that the writers did manage to depict wonderful, believable friendships that slowly developed over time. As teacake mentioned before, this might be one of the reasons slash is popular. The relationship Trip has with Archer feels more real than the one he has with T'Pol, for example.

DAYoung wrote: View Post
But it's also that there's a divide at work: love without the suggestion of carnality, and sex without love. Both are products of a conservative approach, which has trouble dealing with sex in a grown up way.
Interesting point. If I had to choose, I'd go with some old school, non-carnal, Fred Astaire romance anyday.
__________________
Loyalty, honor and a willing heart... I can ask no more than that - Thorin Oakenshield

Hercule Poirot
: I am an imbecile. I see only half of the picture.
Miss Lemon: I don't even see that.
Miss Lemon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2 2012, 09:57 AM   #164
DAYoung
Commander
 
DAYoung's Avatar
 
Location: Melbourne, AUS
View DAYoung's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

[QUOTE=Miss Lemon;6111718]
DAYoung wrote: View Post
I can see your point and I partly agree, but the fact is that the writers did manage to depict wonderful, believable friendships that slowly developed over time.
Absolutely. In fact, I think I said that earlier.

As teacake mentioned before, this might be one of the reasons slash is popular. The relationship Trip has with Archer feels more real than the one he has with T'Pol, for example.
I agree. Kirk and Spock seems more tender than Kirk and [insert alien inexplicably manipulated by Kirk's manliness]
__________________
philosopher & author
www.damonyoung.com.au
Out December 2012: Philosophy in the Garden
DAYoung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2 2012, 10:38 AM   #165
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Star Trek and Homosexuality

Miss Lemon wrote: View Post
but the sex usually doesn't involve any real romance.
So sex yes, lovemaking no.

Trip and T'Pol rubbing each others feet, very sensual, Picard banging Vash and then running away, not so much.

Star Trek can show true romance, so it is possible. Trip & T'Pol was one. Worf & Jadzia is another I though was handled nicely because there was a slow build up of the relationship, they didn't suddenly fall in love.

Problem is, with the maybe/maybe not addition of Riker & Deanna, those are the only romances in all of Star Trek.

The relationship Trip has with Archer feels more real than the one he has with T'Pol, for example.
It is of course possible for a relationship to be a close friendship and not a romance. If Star Trek is going to take the step to having a gay relationship, then there is going to pretty much at some point going to have to be a demonstration of physical affection shown on screen, to differentiate that relationship from a close non-gay bromance.

I see Arab men holding hands in public all the time, part of their culture, and not enough of a indicator for the viewers. I'm Latin, men kiss of the cheek from time to time, again not enough for the viewers. As part of the overall story line, Star Trek would have to "spell it out" if there was a character who was gay. Otherwise we back to anyone of the show whose sexuality isn't depicted on screen or in dialog might be gay.

Star Trek is a show, a performance, unless a fictional character's sexual orientation is shown, then from a certain way of looking at it, they don't have one.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
gay, sulu

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:52 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.