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Old March 16 2012, 11:03 AM   #1
Guy Gardener
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Weren't there 21 Crewmen Admiral Janeway owed a personal Apology to?

22 people including Seven of Nine died because the Admiral's decisions, good and bad.

That's 15 percent of the crew.

Everytime the woman was in a room with 10 people on Voyager during Endgame, she'd killed one and a half of them in the alternate timeline Gammy Kathy called home.

Considering how she endlessly waxed on about what happened to Anika, it's like the other 21 dead people didn't really matter.

Just line them all up in a cargo bay to shake their hand and say "sorry' like the Queen at the end of the Royal Variety Proformance, not that she says "sorry", no, no, Lizzy says "Thankyou precious, arn't you so clever."
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Old March 16 2012, 11:14 AM   #2
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Re: Weren't there 21 Crewmen Admiral Janeway owed a personal Apology t

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Considering how she endlessly waxed on about what happened to Anika, it's like the other 21 dead people didn't really matter.
And what an epic climax for J/7 to go out on!

They really did spoonfeed us the J/7 goodies with that one.
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Old March 16 2012, 12:03 PM   #3
Guy Gardener
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Re: Weren't there 21 Crewmen Admiral Janeway owed a personal Apology t

You're acting like the Admiral's synaptic transceiver was tuned into to the telemetry from Chakotays member like his johnson was her own personal probe... Actually if you believe in the wetwear Borg hide in their drones that Starfleet technology doesn't have the sophistication to recognize, how Picard could still hear Borg transmissions half a decade after Bev swore she gutted him of all that shit... That Chuckles and Seven were both broadcasting the full spectrum of their urges, processes, satisfaction and climaxes to anyone with the technology to listen in.

Yes, Kathryn, that widget is to remote control shuttles.

Nothing else.
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Old March 16 2012, 07:54 PM   #4
Turd Ferguson
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Re: Weren't there 21 Crewmen Admiral Janeway owed a personal Apology t

Imagine how pissed the Equinox crew would be. Sure, there were only Noah Lessing, Marla Gilmore and a couple of others, but the fact that Admiral Janeway could have come back a couple years earlier, intercepted the crew before Ransom went batshit crazy and got the interdimensional aliens pissed at them, they could have saved half the Equinox crew, Carey would still be alive, Neelix could've come back with them (or stayed on the Talaxian asteroid) and they still could have blown the fuck out of the Borg transwarp hub.

Maybe that should be the sequel to Endgame. Lessing goes back in time, puts Admiral and Captain Janeway in the airlock and flips them both the collective bird while the dimensional aliens turn them into beef jerky.

Edit: or, go ALL the way back to the Caretaker's Array. If Janeway was so concerned about altering their history in the Delta Quadrant, Admiral Janeway could wait until the Equinox and Voyager arrived, outfit them BOTH with the futuristic Batmobile armor, then play out Voyager and Equinox's mission logs while using the future shuttle's enhanced warp engines to bring them to pivotal points in both ship's history, replaying them (sans the mass casualties), then blow the transwarp hub and get back to the Alpha Quadrant, both crews intact.
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Old March 16 2012, 11:19 PM   #5
Yuckleberry Finn
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Re: Weren't there 21 Crewmen Admiral Janeway owed a personal Apology t

It would be hard for them not to go into the Barzan wormhole..
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Old March 17 2012, 12:20 AM   #6
Guy Gardener
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Re: Weren't there 21 Crewmen Admiral Janeway owed a personal Apology t

Back in Eye of the Needle (Episode nine) Janeway Nixed going back to caretaker because "They had already had had too much impact on the Delta Quadrant" and that was before they discovered that they were solely responsible for kickstarting the Earthican microchip revolution of the 1970s.

(Sling shotting around a sun, and heading through that microwormhole when it wasn't so micro, and takkng on the Romulans in the 18th century would have been epic.)

Lessing or Marla are so going back in time once they get out of jail.
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Old March 18 2012, 12:43 PM   #7
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Re: Weren't there 21 Crewmen Admiral Janeway owed a personal Apology t

Admiral Janeway was a selfish evil woman. Lt. Carey died just one month earlier. She knew he was a family man and she effectively made him disappear by making B'Elanna the chief engineer. He wasn't even chief engineer of the night shift. She could have gone back in time 1 more month, which is nothing in the span of 23 years or whatever it was, but ultimately, she stopped caring about the crew and only about those she knew directly, like her pet project, the taming of the borg shrew. She always came off as a bitter lady with an axe to grind even back in that original broadcast I watched the next day (damn night class then). She chose who to save and who to let die. She chose a dark future for his family without his return. He spent 7 years away from his family, yearning to return and she had the power to save him but chose not to because he wasn't Seven or Tuvok.
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Old March 18 2012, 01:43 PM   #8
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Re: Weren't there 21 Crewmen Admiral Janeway owed a personal Apology t

DeepSpaceWine wrote: View Post
He spent 7 years away from his family, yearning to return and she had the power to save him but chose not to because he wasn't Seven or Tuvok.
Except you don't absolutely know that for certain, because there is no explanation. One wonders why you choose to give the one that would show the Admiral in the worst possible light. That is your interpretation. Maybe that whole family he yearned to return to was gone, moved on, boys that called someone else Dad. One thing we do know is that by waiting that extra month, Neelix found his love and a family. For whatever reason Admiral Janeway chose that time, and in doing so she also saved 21 people, try focusing on the positive and not the negative sometime.

You say "only one month" but for all you truly know is that month might have meant the difference between success or failure. Kathryn Janeway cared about all of her crew, each and every one. So it is intirely possible that she couldn't save Carey, because truth is if she could have, she would have.
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Old March 18 2012, 03:09 PM   #9
Guy Gardener
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Re: Weren't there 21 Crewmen Admiral Janeway owed a personal Apology t

Better to kill Joe, than let him know that his wife moved on?

Didn't Janeway's bloke move on?

Shouldn't the Admiral have gone back to season 4 and killed the Captain before she found out to save her from that emotional pain?

Other than keeping one side of the Q, the admiral could have arrived any point after after those SpaceGods left and spent the next few weeks to months getting the ship ready for it's encounter with the transwarp Hub down the line, ,and it needn't have been such a rush that they could have gotten through without tipping their hand so much to the Borg.

There was nothing to stop the Admiral showing up at Caretaker and taking over for the next seven years till they reached the transwarp Hub and then sending the ship home... Except that Seven and Chakotay might not fall in love and Miral might not be born and different crew might die.

Traveling forward in time by being there is way more efficient than using technology to leapfrog backwards and forwards to impatiently find the perfect moment RIGHT NOW!
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Old March 18 2012, 10:35 PM   #10
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Re: Weren't there 21 Crewmen Admiral Janeway owed a personal Apology t

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Other than keeping one side of the Q, the admiral could have arrived any point after after those SpaceGods left and spent the next few weeks to months getting the ship ready for it's encounter with the transwarp Hub down the line, ,and it needn't have been such a rush that they could have gotten through without tipping their hand so much to the Borg.

There was nothing to stop the Admiral showing up at Caretaker and taking over for the next seven years till they reached the transwarp Hub and then sending the ship home... Except that Seven and Chakotay might not fall in love and Miral might not be born and different crew might die.

Traveling forward in time by being there is way more efficient than using technology to leapfrog backwards and forwards to impatiently find the perfect moment RIGHT NOW!
This is still an assumption; there is nothing in canon to say you are right. There is canon evidence that she cared for all her crew and by extrapolation you can then say for whatever reason, she couldn't save Joe Carey. You and look at it negatively or positively and the way you look at it pretty much is colored by your personal feeling for the character.
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Old March 19 2012, 01:33 AM   #11
Yuckleberry Finn
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Re: Weren't there 21 Crewmen Admiral Janeway owed a personal Apology t

Brit wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Other than keeping one side of the Q, the admiral could have arrived any point after after those SpaceGods left and spent the next few weeks to months getting the ship ready for it's encounter with the transwarp Hub down the line, ,and it needn't have been such a rush that they could have gotten through without tipping their hand so much to the Borg.

There was nothing to stop the Admiral showing up at Caretaker and taking over for the next seven years till they reached the transwarp Hub and then sending the ship home... Except that Seven and Chakotay might not fall in love and Miral might not be born and different crew might die.

Traveling forward in time by being there is way more efficient than using technology to leapfrog backwards and forwards to impatiently find the perfect moment RIGHT NOW!
This is still an assumption; there is nothing in canon to say you are right. There is canon evidence that she cared for all her crew and by extrapolation you can then say for whatever reason, she couldn't save Joe Carey. You and look at it negatively or positively and the way you look at it pretty much is colored by your personal feeling for the character.

Shush...shush. Haven't you noticed his posting and thread style yet?
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Old March 19 2012, 03:15 AM   #12
Guy Gardener
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Re: Weren't there 21 Crewmen Admiral Janeway owed a personal Apology t

I'm an ass.

But I'm a fair ass.

George Bernard Shaw wrote a play about me called My fair Ass.

It's about a donkey he teaches to fart the alphabet.

Kim traveled back in time to save Joe Carey in Timeless, and he's not a moron or a monster, relatively speaking.

Now Finn, haven't you noticed Brits style?

She's a Janeway Apologist.

This is what we know.

1. The Universe. It diverges timelines, creating a system of branches or redecorates the only and singular timeline, and in either case the future she was familiar with, was never coming. No paradoxes that make everything go boom at the point of incursion

2. Bad tools. We're fools to think that the klingons had never used this method of timetravel before, splitting.redress th universe, and if this device really did destroy the future to change the past, then the Klingon's were fools to sell it. Miral Paris in the Script said that she tested the device and that it worked, and she's a fool not to have killed the these Klingon's grandparents during that test considering she's a fool not to smell the double cross that was coming. However since the Klingon ships were able to follow Janeway through the rift into the past their future seemed not to be destroyed after Admiral Janeway diverged history unless the natural energy field expanding from the space time event they were using as a bride was creating a safe zone eye of the storm similar to Janeway's temporal shielding in year of hell or how Kirk remained unaffected on the Guardian of Forevers World after McCoy helped the Nazis win World War II.

3. Randomness. How much control did Janeway have over her destination, because she arrived 3 days after encountering the borg hub when she should have tried to arrived three days before if she really wanted to feed her younger self a pack of lies, and frankly since she had completely the wrong technology to help Voyager take on the Hub you have to wonder if the hb was even her target, that he didn't just miss her mark by 3 to 6 days but months or years. I'd accept that she didn't save Joe because she's incompetent, or trusting luck a little too much because she was using budget broken bullshit technology.

4. True love. If she really wanted to assure that Seven and Chakotay got married, then according to back to the future, the Admiral had to wait to their "love" had really taken root, and it seems it wasn't when then had sex to keep warm in natural law, but the intimacy of their first date at the beginning of Endgame, which would suggest that their living happily every after was more important than Joe's life.

5. Consequentialness. If this wasn't her timeline, or a mirror universe, then perhaps you could claim that no one here was real to Kathryn, because they were just dopplegangers, it wasn't her crew, it might have been another ship with different people because these were different people leading different people no matter that she was the puppet master charting those lives, because if it all worked out badly maybe just maybe despite how it was flawed falling apart tech, or find a new method of time travel, that she could just backstep again and erase any nonvictories.

6 Absentmindedness. Kathryn was old. Maybe our friend wasn't maliciously excluding Joe for some grudge, she could have just forgotten he existed because he was not just one of the little people but one of the really really little people. or was that always the argument and no one could think of why Janeway would purposely exclude Joe?

7. Escape.

NEWSREADER [OC]: These should be familiar images to everyone who remembers the USS Voyager's triumphant return to Earth after twenty three years in the Delta quadrant. Voyager captivated the hearts and minds of people throughout the Federation, so it seems fitting that on this, the tenth anniversary of their return, we take a moment to recall the sacrifices made by the crew. Corruption charges were brought today against a Ferengi...
Why mention this if it's irrelevant?

It was always a matter of minutes until that Ferengi turned on Janeway and the Authorities came after her too. It's possible that the house of cards she was building to go back in time was actually want landed that ferengi in trouble, more so than she did some thing calculated which didn't pan out and this was her escape hatch, falling through time to when she wasn't a wanted criminal.
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