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Old March 22 2012, 05:34 PM   #451
lurok
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Ah, Fury. Written out, come back.Sometimes less is better for a character. I don't think I'd appreciate Garak so much if he was in every episode. So maybe TPTB did Lien a favour.
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Old March 22 2012, 05:45 PM   #452
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

If a crew of Vidiians captured young Kes, and Neelix rescued her, but killed all Vidiians, it would still be dead romantic... You have to remember, that old Kes thought that the crew of Voyager were the baddies out to get her, and their annihilation was just a mild case of self defense.

Slash fiction pshaw, I'm talking about how I understood Fury as I viewed it canonically.

However, if I'd wanted to do-over canon, here's the scene that was missing from Fury.

Just rescuing her youngerself wasn't enough because, as her master plan stood, Old Kes wasn't rescuing all of her junior edition, only most of her.

I find it odd that Kes would consent to leave her lung behind inside Neelix to be extracted by the Vidiians.

(There was a song from Wham! years ago, the lyrics were, "Last Christmas I gave you my lung, the very next day you gave it away, gave it away, so next Christmas I'm giving it to some one special... ")

That's ridiculous.

She should have taken it with her.

How dare her enemy kitchenrat breath with her lung as he continues to betray her more and harder with every breath!

The worst betrayal!
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Old March 22 2012, 05:55 PM   #453
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

sonak wrote: View Post
spot_loves_data wrote: View Post
You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post

What kind of logic is that? I posted here a lot initially vis a vis the various arguments but then I got the point where I thought everyone should agree to disagree, and then I said the thread was definitely getting stale.
I'd call that kind of logic "awesome." You've obviously enjoyed the thread, as you keep posting in it. If you really wanted it to die, you'd leave it alone.

teacake wrote: View Post
I wouldn't be talking about packing it in the way this threads been going of late spot_loves_data.
I'm picturing something gross and porny.

Speaking of gross and porny, I wonder if breaking up the Kes/Neelix ship (the H.M.S. Ewww) had anything to do with Lien leaving. I think they got rid of the wrong half of the couple, but at least that pair was done. Sure, they had Kes break up with Neelix in Warlord, but it seemed rushed, like the writers wanted to tie up a loose end.

that break-up was absurd. I didn't even realize it had happened at the time, because Kes was possessed. Were the writers so lazy that they didn't want to even give Voyager's biggest relationship up until that time a proper end?
My memory's a little hazy on this but I'm pretty sure that they did write/film a break up scene and it was cut from the episode for some reason.
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Old March 22 2012, 05:59 PM   #454
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Now I have an image in my head of young Kes and Neelix making out amidst piles of mutant Vidiian corpses, just after he rescues her.

As for Kes taking the lung back, as long as Neelix stops breathing, however we get there is cool with me.
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Old March 22 2012, 06:00 PM   #455
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

lurok wrote: View Post
Ah, Fury. Written out, come back.Sometimes less is better for a character. I don't think I'd appreciate Garak so much if he was in every episode. So maybe TPTB did Lien a favour.
Jennifer rejected the first script they sent her for Fury.

She made some notes and sent it back.

She's got a writers credit on IMDB.

One does wonder how she changed the script?
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Old March 22 2012, 06:27 PM   #456
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

^^
The nice people in charge were actually planning to kill of the character at the end of the episode as a nice "gift" to the Kes fans.

Jennifer Lien had objections to that and made them change that.

That's why she's credited as writer at IMDB.
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Old March 22 2012, 08:52 PM   #457
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Considering how Kes left the show, I doubt they broke up because they intending to ditch the character. matter of fact, had they gone the other way, and made their relationship deeper, they could've milked more drama out of Neelix' loss.

Definitely a distinct possibility that they broke them up, in a attempt to open up storyline possibilities for her, and when that still didn't work, they decided to write Kes out to make room for Seven.

Glad to know everyone else was confused about their break up. I remember an episode where it was obvious her and Tom had feelings/attractions for each other, and wondering, "What the heck, what'd I miss, isn't she with Neelix"?
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Old March 22 2012, 11:42 PM   #458
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Considering how Kes left the show, I doubt they broke up because they intending to ditch the character. matter of fact, had they gone the other way, and made their relationship deeper, they could've milked more drama out of Neelix' loss.

Definitely a distinct possibility that they broke them up, in a attempt to open up storyline possibilities for her, and when that still didn't work, they decided to write Kes out to make room for Seven.

Glad to know everyone else was confused about their break up. I remember an episode where it was obvious her and Tom had feelings/attractions for each other, and wondering, "What the heck, what'd I miss, isn't she with Neelix"?
The break-up with Neelix was probably a way to open up story possibilities but she wasn't dumped because those story possibilities didn't work but because they couldn't afford having 10 main characters when Seven arrived and after planning to dump Kim, they changed their minds because of that silly poll among the staff in that magazine and decided to dump Kes instead.

In fact, there were a lot of hints that Kes was becoming a more important character in season 3 and that this development was supposed to continue. Note also that they had to re-write "Year Of Hell" because Kes was no longer on the show wen they started filming that.
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Old March 22 2012, 11:44 PM   #459
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Lynx wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
Considering how Kes left the show, I doubt they broke up because they intending to ditch the character. matter of fact, had they gone the other way, and made their relationship deeper, they could've milked more drama out of Neelix' loss.

Definitely a distinct possibility that they broke them up, in a attempt to open up storyline possibilities for her, and when that still didn't work, they decided to write Kes out to make room for Seven.

Glad to know everyone else was confused about their break up. I remember an episode where it was obvious her and Tom had feelings/attractions for each other, and wondering, "What the heck, what'd I miss, isn't she with Neelix"?
The break-up with Neelix was probably a way to open up story possibilities but she wasn't dumped because those story possibilities didn't work but because they couldn't afford having 10 main characters when Seven arrived and after planning to dump Kim, they changed their minds because of that silly poll among the staff in that magazine and decided to dump Kes instead.

In fact, there were a lot of hints that Kes was becoming a more important character in season 3 and that this development was supposed to continue. Note also that they had to re-write "Year Of Hell" because Kes was no longer on the show wen they started filming that.
Ah, yea, my memories on Voyager are pretty fuzzy, only watched it on the original airing and my viewing became very spotty starting in S4.
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Old March 23 2012, 04:07 AM   #460
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Warlord happened, were the warlord broke up with Neelix so that he could have lesbian sex with his girlfriend, and try out some heterosexual sex too with that wimpy kid.

So we saw a break up, it's just that it wasn't real.

A month or two later there's Darkling where Kes says she found this cool guy who flies shuttles and she wants to run away away with him... Imagine your daughter running away with a biker covered in tattoos, such a cliche, but the Doctor kills him, or beats him up because his program is glitching, and she stays.

THAT's is when I had to ask "what the fuck is going on here?"
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Old March 23 2012, 04:20 AM   #461
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Lynx wrote: View Post
^^
The nice people in charge were actually planning to kill of the character at the end of the episode as a nice "gift" to the Kes fans.
Well yeah, that's why their original plan was her only to live nine years anyway. So even if Kes stayed in the show for 7 years, Kes fans were going to have to deal with her dying anyway. Besides, she was going home to die anyway.

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In fact, there were a lot of hints that Kes was becoming a more important character in season 3 and that this development was supposed to continue.
Where was this?
I saw hints that they were cutting her ties by mid-3rd season. Regardless of the line in "Future's End", the interaction of Kes with other cast members and her lines decreased. By end end of 3rd season, Jen Lien had the fewest lines of the entire cast. Harry Kim even had more dialog and screen time than Kes all season long.
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Old March 23 2012, 05:29 AM   #462
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

If the Bees had their way... Year of Hell was going to last 26 episodes.

Before and After teased Year of Hell.

Before and After was a Kes story, ergo Year of Hell was a 26 episode Kes story.
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Old March 23 2012, 03:35 PM   #463
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

In the last few episodes of season 3 (Distant Origin, Displaced and Worst Case Scenario), she didn't have much to do but its quite obvious to me that in season 3 she was not being pushed into the background whatsoever, quite the opposite. Three episodes I would consider Kes episodes - "Warlord", "Before and After" and "Darkling" (and she did have tons of screentime, it by no means just a Doctor episode) as well as fairly central roles to play in "The Swarm", "Coda" and later the Scorpion two-parter as the telepathic liason. If Harry did have more lines in the season, then its only because he got a lot of typical bridge officer filler material........and that brings me right back to the original point, Kes was only "harder" to write for when compared to someone like Harry/Tuvok/Paris because she couldn't have her line quota per episode bulked up by meaningless, empty crap like "shields down to 20%". Besides helping the doctor, they actually had to think up some material and stuff for her to do because she wasn't naturally in the middle of every situation like the bridge officers.
Which is why I feel that if some of the writers truly felt that she was a difficult writer to work for (and we know Biller didn't feel that way, and I'm sure a couple of other staff writers too) then it was just a testament to their laziness.
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Old March 23 2012, 03:51 PM   #464
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Do you think Voyager carried the entire back-catalogue of Days of our Lives?

Her exposure in Futures End wouldn't have been the end of it.

The intervention episode where they forced her to deal with her problem would have been hilarious.
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Old March 23 2012, 06:11 PM   #465
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
^^
The nice people in charge were actually planning to kill of the character at the end of the episode as a nice "gift" to the Kes fans.
Well yeah, that's why their original plan was her only to live nine years anyway. So even if Kes stayed in the show for 7 years, Kes fans were going to have to deal with her dying anyway. Besides, she was going home to die anyway.

Lynx wrote: View Post
In fact, there were a lot of hints that Kes was becoming a more important character in season 3 and that this development was supposed to continue.
Where was this?
I saw hints that they were cutting her ties by mid-3rd season. Regardless of the line in "Future's End", the interaction of Kes with other cast members and her lines decreased. By end end of 3rd season, Jen Lien had the fewest lines of the entire cast. Harry Kim even had more dialog and screen time than Kes all season long.
It's not sure that "Kes fans would have to deal with her dying anyway". There were hints of prologing her lifespan and even if not, she would probably have survived until they arrived to Earth. As for the sick, morbid episode made to insult the fans in which "she was going home to die anyway", we don't know if this really happened. In fact we don't know if that pathetic creature with very little resemblance to the real Kes really was the real Kes.

If we look at season 3, Kes was the main character in two episodes, "Warlord" and "Before And After". She was a most prominent character in "The Swarm and "Darkling" and had a lot of screen time in episodes like "Basics#2", "Sacred Ground", "Coda" and "Scorpion#1#.

Compare that to Harry Kim who had one episode where he was the main character, "Favorite Son" and two episodes where he was a prominent character, "The Chute" and "Alter Ego".

We can also compare with Neelix who had one episode where he was the main character, "Fair Trade" and one episode as a prominent character, "Rise".

If we compare the episodes where Kes played an important part, like "Warlord", "Before And After", "Darkling", "The Swarm" and "Scorpion#1" with those with Kim and Neelix as important characters, we can see that Kes is a head of both Neelix and Kim when it comes to importance for the episodes as such and when it comes to save the day for the crew.
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