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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old March 14 2012, 07:47 AM   #376
Lynx
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

^^
Some good points there actually, Especially points 3, 6, 7 and 10!
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Old March 14 2012, 07:52 AM   #377
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
5. The leola roots in Aeroponics bay start talking back to Kes as they become sentient becuase of some magic space fart granting wishes, and kes has to decide if she's going to feed the crew sentient plants, lobotomise the roots before she harvesting them, or accepts these tubers as part of the crew, or plants them on a near by passing moon to erect a colony.
This is my favorite. Did we ever see sentient plants in Trek? It seems kind of obvious, going back to Ents but I can't remember any.

10 Neelix and Kes babysit baby Naomi, who WILL NOT SLEEP. Just screaming and screaming and they're going mental trying to stop the girl from screaming and screaming without plunging a doll down her throat. That's what I hate about the new comedy Up All Night, they're not up all night. Their baby barely makes a peep. I've met some shitty babies in my time who were only born to promote suicidal thoughts in their parents but... Think A Night in Sickbay but with a baby who is no mood to go to sleep peacefully. It would be a good bonding episode to have people believe in Kes and Neelix as a couple.
This is the worst thing I have ever read.
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Old March 14 2012, 08:02 AM   #378
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Just wait till you have kids.

There's nothing in the world as actionable as being woken up at 430 am and asked if they're allowed to turn the tv on. Followed by they can't remember which button turns the TV and a demand that you turn on the religious programming that's on before the cartoons because they can't imagine a universe without cartoons.
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Old March 14 2012, 08:39 AM   #379
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

The only thing that would make it worse is if it was their baby.

Of course it would be grown kid by the time A Night in the Nursery was over so the episode would just be one of those rapid growth tales.
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Old March 14 2012, 09:06 AM   #380
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Lynx wrote: View Post
Sometimes I'm actually impressed how people almost twist themselves inside-out to come up with some sort of defence for the annihilation of the character Kes and the firing of Jennifer Lien.
The original poster asked "Why was Kes written off the show?" There's no one answer to these types of questions, but hopefully my recollections and observations will help the OP to gain some understanding.

And what do Jennifer Lien's shyness at conventions have to do with her work on Voyager?
Like it or not, the casts of TNG, DS9 and VOY realised going in that, if their shows were successful, they would become ambassadors for the Star Trek franchise. Lien's shyness was a problem for many convention attendees, and may well have caused misunderstandings between her and the writers and directors.

I mean, for three years she did a great job portraying the character Kes and no one was complaining.
But you can see numerous false starts as the writers were attempting to find a niche for Kes in the series. They jumped her around a lot. As I mentioned before, "Elogium" and "Warlord" were specific episodes featuring retooling. Then they moved her close to a series of 1:1 relationships beyond Neelix: Paris, the EMH, Tuvok. And moved her from hydroponics to nursing. Then let her hair down. Hid her eartips. Tried catsuits. This kind of retooling may well be evidence of the writers finding a character tricky to write for. Even in the planning stages, Kes's lifespan was announced as five, then seven, then nine years.

Then all of a sudden, there are all sorts of problems with writing for the character. In fact, three years of good stories where Kes had an important part contradicts the tales about "the character being hard to write for".
See above.

What you call "good stories" are the end products. The cost of development hours to get the scripts that far may have been prohibitive.
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Old March 14 2012, 10:11 PM   #381
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

^^
1. I do hope that my recollections and observations will give the OP to gain some understanding as well.

2. Once again, I can't understand what Jennifer Lien's shyness at conventions has to do with her daily work on Voyager. I haven't encountered anything about her shyness ruining the daily work and it's definitely not visible in any episode in seasons 1-3.

3. I see those "false starts" as evidence for what an intersting character Kes was. It was possible to come up with different scenarios for the character which led to some very good episodes where Kes played an important role. Compare that to Harry Kim's development during the same time.

4. When it comes to the change of hairstyle, that was because Jennifer Lien had an allergic reaction to the glue which was used to attach the Ocampa ears to her head. By making her have long hair, they could simply omit the ears. As for the catsuit, well Braga seem to be obsessed with catuits so when it wasn't possible to have Janeway or Torres in one, Kes became the victim.

5. As for time-consuming things, it took a lot of time with Neelix's make-up and no one complained.

6. There were no hints or reports about Kes being hard to write for until the "hard to write for decease" suddenly struck the writers in the beginning of season 4.
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Old March 15 2012, 12:07 AM   #382
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

As I said before, Kes was only "difficult" to write for when compared to character who could be fed the usual Starfleet lines every episode like Tuvok, Chakotay and Harry. Kes was a unique character to Voyager and its a pretty damning indictment of their skills if they really did boot Kes for being a "difficult character to write for" and a testament to their laziness. You can't say you tried "everything" to make Kes work when that clearly was not the case whatsoever.
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Old March 15 2012, 03:46 AM   #383
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
You can't say you tried "everything" to make Kes work when that clearly was not the case whatsoever.
Not should it be. She's not a real person in an emergency room you have to save. Trying everything on tv would look terrible.
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Old March 15 2012, 04:42 AM   #384
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

"captain Janeway. I don't want to be a nurse any more. I want to be a mime. I believe in the power of Mime. If I was an excellent enough mime, I'm certain that I could bring peace to the galaxy."
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Old March 15 2012, 06:53 AM   #385
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

teacake wrote: View Post
You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
You can't say you tried "everything" to make Kes work when that clearly was not the case whatsoever.
Not should it be. She's not a real person in an emergency room you have to save. Trying everything on tv would look terrible.
Uh right.
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Old March 16 2012, 02:20 AM   #386
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Lynx wrote: View Post

But it would at least explain why and prevent the speculation about what happened.
They gave us a reason.
If you choose to continue to speculate, then that isn't anybody elses problem but your own. They don't owe you anymore than what they've already done.

As for speculation, we also have those who are so blinded by their dislike of the character Kes and the actress that they have to speculate themselves and gives the character/actress all blame for everything which possible went wrong with the series.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the producers making a choice of writing Kes out.

sonak wrote: View Post
I'm sure you think that saying it's a "conspiracy" makes those who doubt the official story look more ridiculous,
So you're aware of how bad you're position is being perceived, yet you still continue?


I just think it's spin cooked up after the fact, since as has been pointed out numerous times, Kes wasn't the original choice to go, and the "reason" they gave came out of nowhere only when it was time to fire Lien. If someone could point to comments from writers from earlier in the show's run about the difficulties of writing for Kes(like for example, there WERE such difficulties with Troi in TNG season 1) then I'll drop my skepticism.
The fact you've already admitted your standing is ridiculous, then no further examples are necessary.
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Old March 16 2012, 06:31 AM   #387
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

^^
They gave us a reason, yes. But the "reason" they gave us was not convincing at all.
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Old March 16 2012, 06:59 AM   #388
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

This really seems like a thing people should agree to disagree on. Personally I find my explanation to be the most plausible but if you wanna ignore it then fine. Let's just all get on with our lives...
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Old March 16 2012, 07:13 AM   #389
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

So.

They needed a better lie?

Not something you couldn't see through, but at least a lie that didn't make you feel like an idiot when they lied to you. The opposite of FOX news.

I mean, I only just found out that Braga was creating a harmful workplace for Jolene Blacock... Now, logically I'm assuming half the reason she turned him down (numerous times?) is that she didn't want to be a do-over of his relationship with Jeri, (Jeri part II THE REVENGE!) I mean, it's so insulting to think that he only hired Jolene to sleep with her because if it worked once, why not again?

but think...

What if Jeri had turned him down first?

Lawsuited Braga into abandoning the set let like Titpole did?

Maybe Brannon had more hair, or he was sincere, to get away with this Madmen mentality once, but if he'd botched the job at his first time at bat, and Jeri Ryan had got litigious, the last four seasons of Voyager would have been Bragaless and they probably wouldn't have bothered inviting him on board for Enterprise...

And then Jolene wouldn't have been hired as Titpole.

Since, y'know... Different producers might not have hired her just for the opportunity to sleep with her? I'm not saying she isn't talented or didn't do a good job, but a letch hired her to letch her letcherously. Take that jenesequa away and she's just a talented actress like all the other talented actresses...

But the real "funny as balls" point here is that we almost had a Frankenstein situation on our hands.

The monster almost by a narrow margin destroyed her creator.

And...

If Brannon got fired, outsourced fast enough, they might have had enough money to bring Jennifer back.
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Last edited by Guy Gardener; March 16 2012 at 08:28 AM.
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Old March 16 2012, 07:29 AM   #390
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

As for the catsuit, well Braga seem to be obsessed with catuits so when it wasn't possible to have Janeway or Torres in one, Kes became the victim.
Well, at least she looked nice in it. ~shrug~


now it would be funny if Braga hired a lesbian actress and did not know until later.
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