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Old March 14 2012, 03:12 AM   #361
exodus
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

teacake wrote: View Post
It's because as fans we must always secretly suspect there ARE witches, plotting the ruination of our true love.
I'll have to remember to bring this up next time someone mentions they don't understand Neelix' possessive obsessive nature towards Kes and how they'd all wish him dead because he's acting like an asshole.
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Old March 14 2012, 03:16 AM   #362
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

And besides doesn't Trek teach us that nothing is ever as it seems? The Way to Eden even does the whole apple thing.

Gods are computers, idyllic villagers are holograms.. it's no jump to think that Kes was assassinated by Baby Boomers threatened by her innocence.
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Old March 14 2012, 03:36 AM   #363
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

It think it's sad that simply because the producers exercised their God given right to change their minds(the same rights we ALL have) on who to let go is cause to think some type of conspiracy is going on.
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Old March 14 2012, 03:55 AM   #364
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

exodus wrote: View Post
It think it's sad that simply because the producers exercised their God given right to change their minds(the same rights we ALL have) on who to let go is cause to think some type of conspiracy is going on.
But doesn't it make life more exciting?
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Old March 14 2012, 03:57 AM   #365
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

exodus wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
It's because as fans we must always secretly suspect there ARE witches, plotting the ruination of our true love.
I'll have to remember to bring this up next time someone mentions they don't understand Neelix' possessive obsessive nature towards Kes and how they'd all wish him dead because he's acting like an asshole.
That's because he wouldn't have sex with her.

They are in a PG 13 relationship and he was worried that for all his gentlemanly behaviour, waiting till when she's ready, her third birthday it seems from Eligium, that some Son of a bitch is going to snatch her up into a torrid fuckathon before she's ripe physically or ready emotionally.

It's not fair that he has morals and ethics but everyone else, including Kes is a damn pervert.
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Old March 14 2012, 03:58 AM   #366
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

teacake wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
It think it's sad that simply because the producers exercised their God given right to change their minds(the same rights we ALL have) on who to let go is cause to think some type of conspiracy is going on.
But doesn't it make life more exciting?
"exciting" is not the first word that springs to mind.
..but now I get where in inspiration for "Conspiracy Theory" comes from.
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Old March 14 2012, 04:06 AM   #367
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Do you mean "The Voyager Conspiracy"?
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Old March 14 2012, 04:11 AM   #368
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

teacake wrote: View Post
Do you mean "The Voyager Conspiracy"?
My bad.
Yes, yes I do.
Seven riding off the rails based on misinformation.
Yeah, that one.
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Old March 14 2012, 04:13 AM   #369
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
It's because as fans we must always secretly suspect there ARE witches, plotting the ruination of our true love.
I'll have to remember to bring this up next time someone mentions they don't understand Neelix' possessive obsessive nature towards Kes and how they'd all wish him dead because he's acting like an asshole.
That's because he wouldn't have sex with her.

They are in a PG 13 relationship and he was worried that for all his gentlemanly behaviour, waiting till when she's ready, her third birthday it seems from Eligium, that some Son of a bitch is going to snatch her up into a torrid fuckathon before she's ripe physically or ready emotionally.

It's not fair that he has morals and ethics but everyone else, including Kes is a damn pervert.


That's hilarious!!!
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Old March 14 2012, 04:40 AM   #370
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

exodus wrote: View Post
It think it's sad that simply because the producers exercised their God given right to change their minds(the same rights we ALL have) on who to let go is cause to think some type of conspiracy is going on.

I'm sure you think that saying it's a "conspiracy" makes those who doubt the official story look more ridiculous, but I don't think it's a "conspiracy" like UFO cover-ups or something. I just think it's spin cooked up after the fact, since as has been pointed out numerous times, Kes wasn't the original choice to go, and the "reason" they gave came out of nowhere only when it was time to fire Lien. If someone could point to comments from writers from earlier in the show's run about the difficulties of writing for Kes(like for example, there WERE such difficulties with Troi in TNG season 1) then I'll drop my skepticism.
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Old March 14 2012, 05:09 AM   #371
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

It's Orwellian goodspeak.

Everyone does it.
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Old March 14 2012, 06:54 AM   #372
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

sonak wrote: View Post
If someone could point to comments from writers from earlier in the show's run about the difficulties of writing for Kes(like for example, there WERE such difficulties with Troi in TNG season 1) then I'll drop my skepticism.
TNG staff changed their mind about casting at the last minute, too. Crosby asked to be released, but they had already been considering letting Sirtis go. Suddenly, things came to a head with McFadden vs Hurley and she was let go instead. They beefed up possibilities for Troi for Season Two, then Sirtis lost many of those new counselling opportunities to Guinan/Goldberg. Suddenly Bev was the character "not working", and Gene Roddenberry replaced her with a feisty female analog of McCoy (ie. Pulaski), who started to nitpick at the Spock character (ie. Data).

The VOY Companion is not as comprehensive as the DS9 or TNG ones, but I'm sure there are mentions of the Kes problems there. Either there, or old "Starlog" magazines. In Australia, we had Richard Arnold as an annual convention guest, and we picked up a lot of this trivia via his presentations. He's a very good friend of Jennifer Lien, but even he shared some stories about her acute shyness when offscreen, in an effort to help fans understand what was going on, even if we weren't privy to the actual decision making process. Which really isn't any of our business, just as the McFadden Saga wasn't originally explained to the general public.

No one is claiming that Lien was a poor actress. But to infer the writers are lying when they say that her character was hard to write is unfair. Maybe the Kes stories we did see came at great cost: in development time and staff meetings. And, in Hollywood, time is money. (Much the same as how McFadden found herself under fire during Season One because the effect of hot lighting on her hair was costing TNG time and money, with personnel sitting around while she went back to her trailer for another wash and set.)
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Last edited by Therin of Andor; March 14 2012 at 07:05 AM. Reason: typo
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Old March 14 2012, 07:20 AM   #373
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Which you refuse to believe even an official statement from those in charge of the show. So if you don't believe what those actually working on the show say, then who will you believe because nobody else but them would have the actual factual info?
Has it ever occurred to you that official statements aren't always the truth?

And that authorities aren't always "good guys"?
What does it matter?
It won't bring her back.
Who wants the reasons why they were fired made public knowledge? Most people and businesses agree to keep such knowledge private.
You folks are sitting here condemning people over speculation. This is why the public shouldn't know much of what goes on behind the scenes sometimes because folks start being judgmental and go on witch hunts without a lick of proof.
Seriously, what does the reason matter?
No, it won't bring her back. Unfortunately we won't have the character back, neither in episodes, movies or books thanks to "the changes in season 4", "Fury" and other splendid decisions by "the gods".

But it would at least explain why and prevent the speculation about what happened.

As for speculation, we also have those who are so blinded by their dislike of the character Kes and the actress that they have to speculate themselves and gives the character/actress all blame for everything which possible went wrong with the series.
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Old March 14 2012, 07:37 AM   #374
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
If someone could point to comments from writers from earlier in the show's run about the difficulties of writing for Kes(like for example, there WERE such difficulties with Troi in TNG season 1) then I'll drop my skepticism.
TNG staff changed their mind about casting at the last minute, too. Crosby asked to be released, but they had already been considering letting Sirtis go. Suddenly, things came to a head with McFadden vs Hurley and she was let go instead. They beefed up possibilities for Troi for Season Two, then Sirtis lost many of those new counselling opportunities to Guinan/Goldberg. Suddenly Bev was the character "not working", and Gene Roddenberry replaced her with a feisty female analog of McCoy (ie. Pulaski), who started to nitpick at the Spock character (ie. Data).

The VOY Companion is not as comprehensive as the DS9 or TNG ones, but I'm sure there are mentions of the Kes problems there. Either there, or old "Starlog" magazines. In Australia, we had Richard Arnold as an annual convention guest, and we picked up a lot of this trivia via his presentations. He's a very good friend of Jennifer Lien, but even he shared some stories about her acute shyness when offscreen, in an effort to help fans understand what was going on, even if we weren't privy to the actual decision making process. Which really isn't any of our business, just as the McFadden Saga wasn't originally explained to the general public.

No one is claiming that Lien was a poor actress. But to infer the writers are lying when they say that her character was hard to write is unfair. Maybe the Kes stories we did see came at great cost: in development time and staff meetings. And, in Hollywood, time is money. (Much the same as how McFadden found herself under fire during Season One because the effect of hot lighting on her hair was costing TNG time and money, with personnel sitting around while she went back to her trailer for another wash and set.)
Sometimes I'm actually impressed how people almost twist themselves inside-out to come up with some sort of defence for the annihilation of the character Kes and the firing of Jennifer Lien.

And what do Jennifer Lien's shyness at conventions have to do with her work on Voyager? I mean, for three years she did a great job portraying the character Kes and no one was complaining. Then all of a sudden, there are all sorts of problems with writing for the character. In fact, three years of good stories where Kes had an important part contradicts the tales about "the character being hard to write for".

What they should have done was this:

Dear fans of Star Trek Voyager!

The bosses of Paramount are not happy with the ratings for the show so they have ordered us to do something to boost the ratings. Therefore we've decided to bring in a new character which will give us a lot of attention. First we decided to bring in a Borg because we believe that the fans love TNG and The Borg, then we talked about bringing in a "sexy babe" because fans love "sexy babes". Finally we decided to bring in a "sexy Borg babe". That will really give ratings a boost.

However, this has a price. Since our bosses won't give us more money to the production, we have to fire one of the original cast members and get rid of a character. First we decided to dump Garrett Wang (Harry Kim) but he's so cute that we simply can't dump him, at least not after the beauty poll in that magazine so we decided to fire Jennifer Lien and dump Kes instead.

We are sorry for all inconveniences that may cause the actress and all her fans but we hope that you will stick with us in this difficult situation. Maybe there will be a possibility to bring back the character and the actress in the future if ratings goes up and there will be more money available for the production of the show.

Sincerely
The creative staff of Star Trek Voyager.

A statement similar to that would have been more honest than the crap about "Jennifer Lien left of her own free will" followed by " the character was going nowhere", "we couldn't come up with stories", "mutual agreement" and similar propaganda phrases.
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Old March 14 2012, 07:40 AM   #375
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

10 stories I would have liked to have seen about Kes.

1. A story about X conflict that endangers the ship, which requires a number of flash backs to how Kes survived as a Kazon Slave girl to reveal a clue that will save them all from some new Kazon threat from Jabin, the dude that owns her. He has legally binding paperwork. Might have branded her like any other cattle? Owns her.

2. Kes tells Harry about Lynnis and Andrew. They celebrate Andrew's birthday.

3. We actually see Kes and Neelix's break up.

4. Voyager gets home 70 years later and most of the generational crew is at least (yes, inbreeding) is at least half Ocampa. Lots of flash backs tracking the family lines as the gelling legality between marrying third cousins turns to turns to second cousins turns to first cousins and the still knocking about human crew has to spurn the advances from their great great great grandchildren.

5. The leola roots in Aeroponics bay start talking back to Kes as they become sentient becuase of some magic space fart granting wishes, and kes has to decide if she's going to feed the crew sentient plants, lobotomise the roots before she harvesting them, or accepts these tubers as part of the crew, or plants them on a near by passing moon to erect a colony.

6. Kes goes to the Academy with Tuvok and his Night Class. because of her amazing brain she compresses a four year syllabus into a few months. Ensign kes is somewhat amazing, but lieutenant kes junior grade pisses Harry right off. Warpath vengeance shit.

7. Kes has a holonovel adventure in Shandrines where she's a singer. Possibly a murder mystery that if not solved, the ship won't blow up? (i hate that ticking clock bullshit.) Please don't tell me she can't sing... OH! A Dixon Hill Murder mystery which means they get Patrick Stewart to play Dixon as Dixon and not Picard at all as they solve the murder together like Bogey and Bacall.

8. (I know this happened on Andromeda with Trance Gemini, but... Shut up! They're practically the same character!) Tom sits kes down at the helm to try flying Voyager... Which kicks in her space time powers and Voyager ends back at Caretaker array before it's blown up.

9 Pon far kicks in foir Tuvok. A hollogram of his wife, my ass. Tuvok was suppressing loving feelings for that little girl with the weight of mountains to ill effect. Tuvok under the influence would so tried to tap that.

10 Neelix and Kes babysit baby Naomi, who WILL NOT SLEEP. Just screaming and screaming and they're going mental trying to stop the girl from screaming and screaming without plunging a doll down her throat. That's what I hate about the new comedy Up All Night, they're not up all night. Their baby barely makes a peep. I've met some shitty babies in my time who were only born to promote suicidal thoughts in their parents but... Think A Night in Sickbay but with a baby who is no mood to go to sleep peacefully. It would be a good bonding episode to have people believe in Kes and Neelix as a couple.
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