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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old June 19 2013, 02:06 AM   #91
BorgusFrat
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
BorgusFrat wrote: View Post
When you think about it anyway, actual "windows" are kind of silly.
There are many correct observations in your post, but I can't possibly see why the idea of windows is silly.

I for one would rather book a cruise on a starship with windows than to feel boxed into a windowless submarine (but apparently many Trekkers wouldn't mind ).
Cool beans, but it still doesn't make a lot of sense. Unless you say that human beings' eyes (or even just the eyes of starship crews) have been genetically improved by the 23rd century.

The even sillier point is that we're supposed to conclude that the windows on the model (physical or CGI) that are "lit up" are the ones that are "open", I guess you'd call it (or are the ones that have their shades rolled up ) so that people or crewmembers inside can look out of those and "see the stars'!

But in actuality, from what we know about space, it's actually the "windows" that are DARK on the model that you'd have the best chance of seeing anything out of anyway! Because whatever room the crewmember is in at the time would have to be really, really dark in order to see those stars, or anything else. All they'd see otherwise, and probably even in a dark room too, is a big field of black (or gray, since some light would still screw up the view and bounce off the "glass").

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
In my avatar I used a scene from the alternate edit of WNM showing us a long corridor which I believe to run along the row of horizontal windows of the engineering hull.

During daytime and work shifts the environmental engineers' job is not to stargaze but to make sure artificial gravity etc. works flawlessly.

During nighttime simulation it's a different subject and Pike's Enterprise was probably featured during that time of day in "The Cage", with most illumination off, so you'd get a great opportunity to stargaze which would still constitute a real thing (just as real food) in contrast to the virtual experience on a viewscreen.
I doubt it! Stars are just too far away and too dim to show up like that. Especially on such a bright ship like a starship as depicted in Star Trek. Which BTW always seems to have a "magical light source" following it around everywhere and casting shadows on the hull -- as though it is always nearby a sun or other light source! It's not believable. You just couldn't see much of anything through those "windows" -- especially at warp speed!!!

And I really doubt that what we think of as viewscreens would be what they use on the Enterprise 300 years from now. How do you know they won't be more or less 100% identical to, actually even BETTER than, the "real" view you're saying you could see?!? A clear view with a super-detailed resolution of a starfield that you're trying to look at is a lot better than a "natural' view of . . .nothing!

That's why I think Franz Joseph did what he did- - or at least, PART of the reason: he knew that having windows on a ship like that was kind of ridiculous. You couldn't make one so that it'd work effectively. I guess you could have maybe one or two here or there for some sort of "visual emergency". But all over the ship like that? It's not believable at all. So Franz called them Environmental System Reactors (I think!?!) and let it hang out there on its own for fans to imply what he meant-- that they weren't "windows' as we understand them. . . because it wouldn't make sense.

As for your avatar, I like it -- I like seeing those long straight corridors that we never saw again. If I understand what you're saying I disagree with you again though-- I really doubt that the row of windows you mention would be located in a corridor. I think they'd be in a room or rooms instead.
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Old June 19 2013, 03:16 AM   #92
scotpens
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

BorgusFrat wrote: View Post
That's why I think Franz Joseph did what he did- - or at least, PART of the reason: he knew that having windows on a ship like that was kind of ridiculous. You couldn't make one so that it'd work effectively. I guess you could have maybe one or two here or there for some sort of "visual emergency". But all over the ship like that? It's not believable at all. So Franz called them Environmental System Reactors (I think!?!) and let it hang out there on its own for fans to imply what he meant-- that they weren't "windows' as we understand them. . . because it wouldn't make sense.
Whatever source you got that from, it can't be the Franz Joseph plans. The windows aren't called out or identified by any specific name.
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Old June 19 2013, 05:13 AM   #93
BorgusFrat
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

scotpens wrote: View Post
Whatever source you got that from, it can't be the Franz Joseph plans. The windows aren't called out or identified by any specific name.
Hi scotpens! I never wrote that it was on the blueprints, but okay, no sweat -- then it is in the Star Fleet Technical Manual. Which makes more sense that it'd be in there anyway. I don't have my copy near me at the moment though, so hopefully someone on here can check for us?!?

Thanks.
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Old June 19 2013, 05:18 AM   #94
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

BorgusFrat wrote: View Post
scotpens wrote: View Post
Whatever source you got that from, it can't be the Franz Joseph plans. The windows aren't called out or identified by any specific name.
Hi scotpens! I never wrote that it was on the blueprints, but okay, no sweat -- then it is in the Star Fleet Technical Manual. Which makes more sense that it'd be in there anyway. I don't have my copy near me at the moment though, so hopefully someone on here can check for us?!?

Thanks.
No. I don't see any such designations in either the FJ blueprints or the tech manual.

So Franz called them Environmental System Reactors (I think!?!) and let it hang out there on its own for fans to imply what he meant-- that they weren't "windows' as we understand them. . . because it wouldn't make sense.
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Old June 19 2013, 09:59 AM   #95
aridas sofia
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

scotpens wrote: View Post
BorgusFrat wrote: View Post
That's why I think Franz Joseph did what he did- - or at least, PART of the reason: he knew that having windows on a ship like that was kind of ridiculous. You couldn't make one so that it'd work effectively. I guess you could have maybe one or two here or there for some sort of "visual emergency". But all over the ship like that? It's not believable at all. So Franz called them Environmental System Reactors (I think!?!) and let it hang out there on its own for fans to imply what he meant-- that they weren't "windows' as we understand them. . . because it wouldn't make sense.
Whatever source you got that from, it can't be the Franz Joseph plans. The windows aren't called out or identified by any specific name.
It's here:

http://trekplace.com/fj-gallery-colorguide.html

From a little known communique by Franz Joseph. Read for details.
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Old June 19 2013, 01:23 PM   #96
Robert Comsol
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

BorgusFrat wrote: View Post
That's why I think Franz Joseph did what he did- - or at least, PART of the reason: he knew that having windows on a ship like that was kind of ridiculous.
Regardless what Franz Joseph did or did not do, just because you discredit the idea of windows as being "silly" or "ridiculous" doesn't mean it is.

One of the oddest things about being in space is that you are technically boxed up in a sardine can amidst the incredible wastness of space. While windows aboard a starship may not make sense from a strictly technological point of view, they serve an important psychological need of the crew now and possibly, then - just to be able to look out - and serve as an antidote against claustrophobia (unless you got used to live in a basement...).

Interestingly, ever since TOS the concept of windows aboard spaceships has become popular so there is an apparent and positive psychological function, even if it's just to make the audience wish to be aboard...

BorgusFrat wrote: View Post
As for your avatar, I like it -- I like seeing those long straight corridors that we never saw again. If I understand what you're saying I disagree with you again though-- I really doubt that the row of windows you mention would be located in a corridor. I think they'd be in a room or rooms instead.
If you'd take a closer look at the screencaps, you'd notice that opposite the corridor wall (you see) there has to be an open and illuminated space (judging by the shadows the actors cast against the visible corridor wall!). I believe this to be some kind of dining area along the row of windows on the engineering hull (and during nighttime is a perfect place for a candlelight dinner among the stars, planets and interstellar gas clouds ).

Bob
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Old June 19 2013, 01:40 PM   #97
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

jayrath wrote: View Post
So many get bent out of shape over this,
Just noticed the pun.
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Old June 19 2013, 02:45 PM   #98
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

whatever room the crewmember is in at the time would have to be really, really dark in order to see those stars, or anything else.
Why are you fixating just on stars??

Starships spend quite a lot of time orbiting planets, giving at least half the crew a good opportunity to view the planet. That's what real astronauts talk about the most when they come back from space--how awesome it is to view earth from space.
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Old June 19 2013, 03:15 PM   #99
Mario de Monti
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

More reasons, why they are windows and nothing else:

1. Whenever we see windows from the inside of the ship, we see the inner and the outer edge of the wall this window is embedded into, we see how thick it is and can look through it at the section of the wall. If they were not windows but displays of some sort they would just be flat rectangles like the viewscreen on the bridge and you couldn´t look "into" the wall.

2. Just because our materials today would make it problematic to look out into space that way doesn´t mean that 23rd century technolgy would face the same problems. Whatever material they use for windows (transparent aluminum?) may have optical properties that DO allow stargazing.

3. When Star trek first aired in the 1960s the audience was (obviously) not familiar with the design, it was a completely new approach to designing spaceships. So the only way for Roddenberry, Jefferies & Co. to give some kind of reference as to how big this ship was supposed to be was by putting something on the outer hull that was familiar: windows!

4. When building the filming miniature, why would they put things on the outer hull that have the shape of windows, the size of windows, are lit like windows and positioned in rows like windows but aren´t windows?????

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
One of the oddest things about being in space is that you are technically boxed up in a sardine can amidst the incredible wastness of space. While windows aboard a starship may not make sense from a strictly technological point of view, they serve an important psychological need of the crew now and possibly, then - just to be able to look out - and serve as an antidote against claustrophobia (unless you got used to live in a basement...).
EXACTLY! Don´t understimate the human psyche! Especially when people are embarking on such a long voyage so far from home who are mainly engineers, scientists, etc. Hell, even the (real world) Mercury capsules, where the astronauts were more passengers than pilots and their missions lasted only a few hours, had a window. And not because the designers felt it necessary but because the astronauts wanted one!

Mario
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Old June 19 2013, 08:25 PM   #100
BorgusFrat
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

aridas sofia wrote: View Post
It's here:

http://trekplace.com/fj-gallery-colorguide.html

From a little known communique by Franz Joseph. Read for details.
Thanks aridas!! That's the one-- I knew I saw it somewhere!

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
One of the oddest things about being in space is that you are technically boxed up in a sardine can amidst the incredible wastness of space. While windows aboard a starship may not make sense from a strictly technological point of view, they serve an important psychological need of the crew now and possibly, then - just to be able to look out - and serve as an antidote against claustrophobia (unless you got used to live in a basement...).

Interestingly, ever since TOS the concept of windows aboard spaceships has become popular so there is an apparent and positive psychological function, even if it's just to make the audience wish to be aboard…
No sweat, man. I understand all that. Claustrophobia is true, but you have to wonder why they wouldn't, you know, make the windows BIGGER then!?!?!

Of course, they wanted to suggest to TV viewers that they actually WERE windows, so they didn't make bigger ones until TMP in the gardens. And those would be a size that would actually make sense for what you're talking about. The regular smallish ones that we saw Kirk look out of with Odona really wouldn't help much with "claustrophobia" -- and that's the size of most of the "windows' on the ship!

mos6507 wrote: View Post
Why are you fixating just on stars??

Starships spend quite a lot of time orbiting planets, giving at least half the crew a good opportunity to view the planet. That's what real astronauts talk about the most when they come back from space--how awesome it is to view earth from space.
Hi mos6507; I didn't just fixate on stars-- a few posts back I even mentioned how you might see some of the planet if you were orbiting it. Not very much, though, cuz the "windows" are pretty small. But you'd see it pass under you. Probably. Besides, I think Mario is right when he wrote:

Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
Just because our materials today would make it problematic to look out into space that way doesn´t mean that 23rd century technolgy would face the same problems. Whatever material they use for windows (transparent aluminum?) may have optical properties that DO allow stargazing.
… because that's what I was saying earlier: they aren't windows as we understand them. They HAVE to be different somehow. They have to be BETTER than "windows' we have now in order to be worthwhile. Maybe its transparent aluminum, who knows? But in a technology era with transporters and warp drive and phasers I think they'd have better windows than what we see on the model … in a real universe like shown.

And of course the human psyche is important. That's why I'd give the crew even BIGGER windows or "ports" to look through than the tiny ones they have! It's just funny that you are talking about a culture like this and they have transporters that can "beam" things right through the hull, yet the windows have to be windows as we think of them today! I'm just saying they don't have to be. And that's what FJ was getting at, at least a little bit -- "let's imply that these things have more functionality than just rolling up a shade and looking outside because that's not going to do you much good to look at tiny little stars or when you're traveling around at Warp 6!" So he called them Environmental System Reactors, implying more capabilities.

Since they can beam living beings through the hull and down to a planet, they probably also have the technology on a starship like this to do something like designate entire sections of the hull, almost whereever they want, to become transparent whenever they want -- so they could look right through and out into space. And through a much bigger "opening" than the pretty small windows they show on the side of the hull! Say, 4 feet by 8 feet high or similar. Something like what they put on the TMP Enterprise later on.

And I of course know that they're all supposed to be windows, or that was the intent. Originally I was just pointing out for jayrath, in his earlier post, another method by which he could possibly make his idea work (of decks aligned differently in the secondary hull). But not really even that way would it work, since we saw Matt's cross section drawing anyway!

So back to the original point of the thread-- forcing "curved" corridors into the support hull is probably even more "silly" than the small windows everywhere. And it wouldn't work anyway because all of a sudden the "windows" would have to be oriented in a different direction than they are on the rest of the ship (taller than wider), and that's not how they look on the exterior of the model!

Peace out, dudes.
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Old June 19 2013, 10:36 PM   #101
Robert Comsol
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

BorgusFrat wrote: View Post
I understand all that. Claustrophobia is true, but you have to wonder why they wouldn't, you know, make the windows BIGGER then!?
But there were bigger windows on the TOS Enterprise
  • the pilot version had a huge bow rectangular window on Deck 2 (often mistaken for a viewscreen), which would have probably been visible behind Kirk in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" (unfortunately Deck 2 was basically removed for the regular series and along with it the window)
  • we do have four large and rectangular sky- or starlights on the upper side of the saucer hull
  • we do have a dark room with a long horizontal and panoramic window in the engineering hull
  • and last but not least we have the three circular bow windows of the saucer that are much bigger than the others
My only issue with the TMP Enterprise is that these bow windows were abolished but ST V "put these back" where these belonged, IMHO. At least one good thing about ST V and worthy of another look: http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tffhd1437.jpg

Bob
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Old June 19 2013, 10:43 PM   #102
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

Something I've always wondered about in regards to the enterprise's bridge - where's the shit house?
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Old June 19 2013, 11:46 PM   #103
BorgusFrat
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
But there were bigger windows on the TOS Enterprise
  • the pilot version had a huge bow rectangular window on Deck 2 (often mistaken for a viewscreen), which would have probably been visible behind Kirk in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" (unfortunately Deck 2 was basically removed for the regular series and along with it the window)
  • we do have four large and rectangular sky- or starlights on the upper side of the saucer hull
  • we do have a dark room with a long horizontal and panoramic window in the engineering hull
  • and last but not least we have the three circular bow windows of the saucer that are much bigger than the others
My only issue with the TMP Enterprise is that these bow windows were abolished but ST V "put these back" where these belonged, IMHO. At least one good thing about ST V and worthy of another look: http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tffhd1437.jpg

Bob
To each his own, eh?!?

• Your first example -- not sure which window you're referring to but if it's the one I think it is then there's nothing to say that was a window. More likely some form of sensor. At least, that's how historically most fans have referred to it.

• Upper primary hull?!?!!!! Same answer -- most fans and blueprinters have NEVER considered those to be "windows". If you really argue that they are, though, then IMHO you've got a much, MUCH tougher hill to climb than some of your other examples that you've made in this thread for visual cues and what they mean ... because on those four rectangular squares we can't see anything inside them! And THOSE are so big that, shouldn't we be able to see SOMEthing?!? Even with 1966 level technology?? Those are just sensors. Or transporter room beam-out locations ("energy transparent to hull", as its called). Or even some form of futuristic station-keeping thruster system that's actually MORE advanced than what we saw on the TMP Enterprise.

• Long dark panoramic window?? That's a reach, don't you think? And even if it IS a window, I wouldn't really call it overly panoramic. And still kind of a 20th-century-ish type of size, being unnecessarily undersized. But this would have to be your best point ... good stuff.

• Three bow circles? Once again, I've never read anybody seriously say that those are windows. I guess they could be, but most fan explanations I've ever seen consider those to be forward-sweeping sensors or backup deflectors in case of main dish failure.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
My only issue with the TMP Enterprise is that these bow windows were abolished but ST V "put these back" where these belonged, IMHO. At least one good thing about ST V and worthy of another look: http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tffhd1437.jpg
WAIT!!!! You're claiming that those long, wide, rectangular windows on that screencap are on the FRONT of the ship?!?!? On the bow? Of the saucer rim? Where? I'm not being argumentative, but I don't see them anywhere! And I really can't stand that movie so I've only seen it once or twice. Of course, I've also just worked a long day and I'm more than a bit tired ... but where are they on the model??? If they're indeed really not there then that kind of makes my point: that things like the "windows" in that lounge with the sailing ship's wheel that you linked to are actually really viewscreens ... maybe viewscreens that are far, far, FAR more advanced, realistic, and crystal clear than anything available today. Which is part of my very point! You probably wouldn't even be able to TELL whether you were looking out of a "window" OR a viewscreen with the kind of technology available to Star Fleet and on display (pun intended ).

Again, I already believe they are all supposed to be windows. I was only trying to give jayrath a ray of hope for his theory about the deck layouts in the support hull.

Either way, like I said in another post, I like pie! And this just makes for more interpertations and an even more interesting (and tasty) pie!!!

Good talk, Russ
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Old June 19 2013, 11:49 PM   #104
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Something I've always wondered about in regards to the enterprise's bridge - where's the shit house?
Genetically-tweaked crews of starships can hold it longer

(Sounds like a joke but why wouldn't they make tiny improvements like these to deep space crews??)
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Old June 20 2013, 06:47 AM   #105
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Something I've always wondered about in regards to the enterprise's bridge - where's the shit house?
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