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Old February 5 2012, 07:36 PM   #16
Sandoval
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Re: A (hopefully) interesting fanfic discussion topic!

What if Starfleet had made contact with these Sioux-style aliens years earlier but, since they were politely asked to leave, are unable to return due to their own directives of non-interference?

Federation civilians on the other had are not bound by such regulations and are free to do as they wish.
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Old February 5 2012, 10:01 PM   #17
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Re: A (hopefully) interesting fanfic discussion topic!

We're overthinking again...

The Prime Directive exists in the TOS and TNG eras, and as long as it does, interfering with the Sioux aliens is a violation of it because they exist outside of Federation space. No special treaty is required to keep Starfleet from helping. All Starfleet and the Federation have to do is obey their own law.

In fact, in this situation their likely course of action would be to forcibly remove the settlers to Federation space, ending the prospecting and the story. They won't battle the aliens to protect the settlements.

This scenario can play out in any era the Prime Directive is in force. It doesn't have to be TOS.
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Old February 5 2012, 10:09 PM   #18
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Re: A (hopefully) interesting fanfic discussion topic!

I didn't really have the Prime Directive in mind when I mentioned non-interference, but rather whatever regulations Starfleet likely have in place that govern situations when they encounter a spacefaring race are not willing to enter into any sort of relationship.

It strikes me that if a Starfleet ship encounters such a race who politely tells them they're not interested in 'being friends' and to leave their space and not come calling again, then Starfleet would in all likelihood respect this and avoid that region in future.

So if these Sioux aliens fall into this category then Starfleet would likely respect their wishes and not infringe on their territory again, whereas your man on the street Federation citizen is not bound by the Starfleet MO and can do as they please.
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Old February 5 2012, 10:39 PM   #19
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Re: A (hopefully) interesting fanfic discussion topic!

Sandoval wrote: View Post
I didn't really have the Prime Directive in mind when I mentioned non-interference, but rather whatever regulations Starfleet likely have in place that govern situations when they encounter a spacefaring race are not willing to enter into any sort of relationship.

It strikes me that if a Starfleet ship encounters such a race who politely tells them they're not interested in 'being friends' and to leave their space and not come calling again, then Starfleet would in all likelihood respect this and avoid that region in future.

So if these Sioux aliens fall into this category then Starfleet would likely respect their wishes and not infringe on their territory again, whereas your man on the street Federation citizen is not bound by the Starfleet MO and can do as they please.
Exactly, but the story in question involves those same men on the street running afoul of those self-same aliens and what would happen, and all I meant was the OP's analogy was incorrect, because of the Prime Directive, as other posters' suggestion that it take place in the TOS era is unnecessary, again, because of the Prime Directive.

The special regulations you're thinking about are really offshoots of the Prime Directive, if they exist at all, because having contact with a race that wants no contact can be considered "interference with their natural development."
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Old February 5 2012, 10:44 PM   #20
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Re: A (hopefully) interesting fanfic discussion topic!

I don't think this race not wanting contact is connected with 'not interfering with their natural development'.

For example I close the door on cold-callers not because I don't want them interfering with my natural development, I do it because I'm simply not interested in communicating with them.

I'm describing a situation that is akin to that - Starfleet wanders into 'Sioux' space following their usual MO of making friends but find their advances rebuffed - not due to the aliens' concerns about interference in their culture but merely complete disinterest.

Essentially "Thanks but no thanks, please don't call again."
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Old February 6 2012, 12:40 AM   #21
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: A (hopefully) interesting fanfic discussion topic!

Due to the Prime Directive, I believe Starfleet would only have made first contact with the Sioux-Aliens if they were warp capable. Otherwise the very means of communicating with them would interfere with their natural development.

Either Picard or Troi stated in the TNG episode "First Contact" that they wait until a species reaches that stage in their development before introducing themselves (though only after undercover anthropological research has been conducted).

The Sioux-Aliens could only be in the very early stages of warp (no faster than 1.5), but because the asteroid belt is in their system they are de facto 'landlords', so ultimately have a substantial claim to what is there--they would however lack the means of effectively mining it.

Starfleet would respect their wishes, so if the Sioux-Aliens asked for no further dealings with them, Starfleet would respect that--though they could always change their minds in the future.

But thats just some more thoughts on the topic.
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Old February 6 2012, 09:16 PM   #22
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Re: A (hopefully) interesting fanfic discussion topic!

I don't see a problem with the aliens being warp-capable.

More that their ships are very few in number and relatively weak so they're only able to launch hit-and-run raids against these prospectors - doing what little they can do make their lives harder in the hopes that they will eventually pack up and leave.

This would be a very entertaining project to get off the ground I must admit.
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Old February 6 2012, 09:43 PM   #23
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Re: A (hopefully) interesting fanfic discussion topic!

ADM2-I think you're off base in that the Prime Directive is not a factor once a civilization achieves warp capability. So it wouldn't have any point in this tale. It would, instead, be the diplomats who might be involved, trying to put checks on the "49ers" via cooperation w/the Sioux.
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Old February 6 2012, 10:50 PM   #24
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Re: A (hopefully) interesting fanfic discussion topic!

What you're all missing is that this concept doesn't work if Starfleet or the Federation is involved at all. Otherwise it's not a story about independent settlers facing great odds. It's Yet Another Story about the Fleet and the Starship Fanwank and Captain Glorious Godfrey saving the benighted colonists from the evil guys in pancake make-up.

You're all trying to come up with a Federation/Starfleet/Sioux alien backstory when it is completely unnecessary for the concept to work. It's perfect if it's prospectors going out into the great unknown and meeting natives nobody knows about and get in trouble with them. Then the settlers have a choice: stand and fight, run back to Fed space or call for help. If they call for help, then the Federation has to make a choice, and all I'm saying is, the Federation won't necessarily choose to help people who are essentially trespassing on somebody else's property...and it would be better from a dramatic standpoint if they didn't.
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Old February 6 2012, 10:57 PM   #25
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Re: A (hopefully) interesting fanfic discussion topic!

To be honest I can't see Starfleet not noticing or finding out that thousands of Federation citizens have all upped-sticks and left for parts unknown.
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Old February 12 2012, 09:43 PM   #26
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Re: A (hopefully) interesting fanfic discussion topic!

Anything happening with this then?
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Old February 15 2012, 06:32 AM   #27
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Re: A (hopefully) interesting fanfic discussion topic!

I've got a few ideas.

For the time, I think that around 2260 would be good. Just before Kirk's five year mission.

Perhaps, the "Sioux aliens" aren't native to the system at all. What if they were nomads native to the area around the system? For whatever reason, their claim to the system is shaky at best. Because the claim is so tenuous and because of the pressures of the cold war with the Klingons, the Federation just goes ahead and moves to get at the dilithium and whatnot in the system. They are technologically unadvanced (say Earth 22nd century or less) and dirt poor. They are too proud to take the Federations offers of handouts. They know of the system's vast resources, but have lacked the ability to exploit them. When the Feds come along, the "Sioux" want a piece of the action and that sweet, sweet Federation technology and have no problem with the idea of taking it.

Lightly armed or unarmed freighters, mining vessels, and asteroid colonies are no match for even the low tech means of the aliens, so the Federation sends a patrol ship to the area. Unfortunatly for the miners in the system, Starfleet doesn't take the situation all that serious. They send a ship that's pushing fifty years old and not really up to the task of protecting the colonies and ships in the system. The ship is small, not too quick or maneuverable, and doesn't boast the best weapon systems around. It's better than anything the aliens have, but not by much. The Starfleeters have a hard time keeping the aliens out of the colonists' collective hair.

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Old February 15 2012, 07:27 AM   #28
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: A (hopefully) interesting fanfic discussion topic!

I like the idea of being set in the mid-23rd century, when there were a lot of mounting hostilities so Starfleet and the UFP had other things to worry about other than where a few thousand of its citizens were headed.

I would say however that for an idea such as this there definately seems to be too much focus on Starfleet operations in the region. It would work better if they were always in the background, too far away to provide any real assistance thus leaving the colonists, prospectors, miners and traders on their own for the most part.

Any Starfleet ship that would be included should either be very small or pushing retirement (leaving newer ships to see to more important sectors of space).
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Old February 15 2012, 12:11 PM   #29
T'Girl
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Re: A (hopefully) interesting fanfic discussion topic!

Aaron McGuire wrote: View Post
Perhaps, the "Sioux aliens" aren't native to the system at all.
They're from a nearby star system, this is one of the first star systems they've reached after developing warp drive. Their sole claim to the entire system amounts to "we were here first," and also "our home system is closer that yours."

... a vast asteroid-field ...
Our own asteroid belt (the inner one) has a circumference of over a billion kilometres.

who object to this sudden influx of aliens into their territory
The Sioux aliens have claimed the belt in it entirety, they are thinly spread through the belt, and only inhabit a small portion of it. They lack the technology to enforce their claim, and have resorted to isolated raids to encourage other to leave. Sometimes it works.


Frank Force wrote: View Post
One story might follow two young men arriving in what is essentially an oversized shuttlecraft

Another story might follow a larger, more well-funded mining ship and its crew.
The belt is slowly in the process of being divide up. Different species, not all from the Federation are arriving. Some are new comers, other have been there for decades, individual miners and also a few professional mining companies (Ezra Dax's family-like). And a couple large corporations too, causing friction with the independents.

Small sections of the belt are "de facto" the property of this or that species.

I wouldn't place it in the Picard-era 24th century, somehow I can't see hundreds of thousands of people having any sort of motivation to leave the safety of Federation space to seek their fortune in the unknown.
Not everyone wants to be taken care of and be provided for. You'll alway have a segment who want to build their own lifes, with their own hands.

Mistral wrote: View Post
No one mentions telling the tale from the viewpoint of the "Sioux" aliens ...
That would be one story possibility, are they of one mind concerning the raids? Some of them might just be traders, settlers, miners. Each with their own story.

This whole thing might work best as a anthology.

Sandoval wrote: View Post
Starfleet ... hamstring them so they weren't massively involved ... but is unable to legally stop Federation citizens from going out there.
If the Federation (or Starfleet) are in over all control, this becomes far less interesting, we lose the "wild west" aspect.

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
I would think that an Archer-Class ship (the 50m long scout from Vanguard)
And maybe a number of runabout size ships, and sublight shuttles as well, operating off of a beat up old carrier, vintage Romulan War era, it basically loses it warp drive after it arrives.

But then again, I love small ships.
Me too. You send in a "flying starbase' type ship and it wreaks the premise.

Admiral2 wrote: View Post
The Prime Directive exists in the TOS and TNG eras ...
But the Prime Directive in TOS, and the Prime Directive in TNG are so different, it's basically two different "laws" with the same name.

interfering with the Sioux aliens is a violation of it because they exist outside of Federation space.
The Federation might not recognize the Sioux alien annexation of the entire system. Starfleet did go to the defense of the settlers who moved into disputed space, protected them from the Cardassians.

No special treaty is required to keep Starfleet from helping. All Starfleet and the Federation have to do is obey their own law.
But which law, during which time period? Even if Starfleet's presence wasn't to fight the aliens as a group, they could still protect the settlements from attacks. Problem would be the mines and settlement are scattered, and Starfleet is thin spread.

Starfleet might also be there to prevent the settlers from attacking the aliens in response. Plus there are other aliens besides the Sioux.

In fact, in this situation their likely course of action would be to forcibly remove the settlers to Federation space, ending the prospecting and the story.
The settlers are from planets within the Federation, who want their species/people protected, their families who remained behind would call for it, and their representatives in the Federation Council would listen. There might be elements in the Council who see this rich system and want the Federation to one day swallow it.

Sandoval wrote: View Post
your man on the street Federation citizen is not bound by the Starfleet MO and can do as they please.
Especially if they are outside the Federation proper.

then Starfleet would likely respect their wishes and not infringe on their territory again
Again, if Starfleet recognized their claim that the asteroid belt was entirely their territory.

Admiral2 wrote: View Post
because having contact with a race that wants no contact can be considered "interference with their natural development."
And Starfleet can say, "fine, we won't interfere with you and your settlements, and you don't interfere with ours ... we clear?" Plus there nothing that says that there is any contact with the Homeworld of the Sioux aliens at all. Just those of the Sioux that ventured to the asteroid belt.

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Due to the Prime Directive, I believe Starfleet would only have made first contact with the Sioux-Aliens if they were warp capable.
If Starfleet got to them prior to the private interest getting there first, Starfleet might be coming in late in the game, after much of the situation was already in place.

The miners, settlers, traders, transporters and such were up and running, when Starfleet first entered the system.

Admiral2 wrote: View Post
What you're all missing is that this concept doesn't work if Starfleet or the Federation is involved at all.
No, it would depend on the level of involvement. If we're discussing "only" tens (or hundreds) of thousands of people out of the Federation, how much in the way of assets is the Federation really going to throw at the problem?

It's perfect if it's prospectors going out into the great unknown and meeting natives nobody knows about and get in trouble with them
If that happens first, yes. And I agree that Starfleet should not be the main focus of the story (or stories).

Sandoval wrote: View Post
To be honest I can't see Starfleet not noticing or finding out that thousands of Federation citizens have all upped-sticks and left for parts unknown.
A hundred thousand people (if that), out of a trillion? That would be like 32 people disappearing out of the American population.

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
I like the idea of being set in the mid-23rd century
Look at the miners in Mudd's Women. Something like that.

Starfleet ... It would work better if they were always in the background,
Yes, minimal presence.


Last edited by T'Girl; February 15 2012 at 12:24 PM.
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Old February 15 2012, 04:29 PM   #30
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Re: A (hopefully) interesting fanfic discussion topic!

I’ve been giving this idea some pondering and thought I would thrown in my ‘pitch’ for it, just as one possible slant on the OP’s idea.

* * * * *

In late 2259, deep within unclaimed and uncharted space four small, tightly grouped together planetary systems were discovered by long-range probes. Known as the Draconii Cluster (Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta), scans have shown that each one has at least on asteroid belt that registers higher than normal levels of minerals, ores and metals—but huddled so closely together, they are a veritable untapped goldmine. Though the Federation wanted to keep the Cluster quiet, until after they could conduct a full survey and then lay claim to the resources, but that wasn’t to be so. Word of the Cluster leaked out and dozens of species, mining corporations and individual hopefuls now has their eyes set on it—a few looking to expand their sphere of influence, others to increase their profits, and some hoping for a new life.

In the Cluster, as the separate groups begin to stake their claims, small outposts and colonies begin to spring up on many of the asteroids, whilst some of the larger groups opt for small stations for trading or processing the materials. Though many groups work in friendly competition with each other, there are a few are only interested in their own goals and will stop at nothing to achieve them. Matters are compounded when the Insédi, a newly warp capable species from a system near the Cluster, begin hit-and-run attacks, seeing the region as their territory.

* * * * *

This way would explain the Federation’s minimal official involvement in the region, leaving it to private companies and individuals to tame the region, though maybe with one or two small Starfleet scouts on hand to chart the region and offer aid when needed. It would also allow for various aspects to be explored: profession companies (either the miners themselves, or perhaps the guardships they would hire to keep their investments safe), small independent crews, solitary prospectors or traders, station-based, colonists, established alien species or the Sioux-aliens (Insédi). As time progressed some of the groups may band together to defend themselves for aggressors, forming their own posses for protection. The level of competency and technology for each group would depend on who was involved, what their aim was and what they would be willing to do to achieve it.
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