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Old January 22 2012, 09:12 PM   #1
Frank Force
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Caretaker - The lack of water?

Help me out with something. I can understand why there is no water on the surface of Ocampa - the Caretaker's original experiments saw to that - so the Kazon on the surface are thirsty but stick around for the mining rights. As far as the different Kazon sects go, Neelix says that 'some have ore, some have water, and they all fight each other for it' or something similar. He also says that 'no one around here wastes water in this manner' referring to baths and the like, but why would water be so scarce in this entire region of the Delta Quadrant? Even on Ocampa itself there is still ample water below the surface. Why does the drought seem to be so widespread between different solar systems?
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Old January 22 2012, 09:19 PM   #2
Sandoval
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Re: Caretaker - The lack of water?

I suppose the original Nacene experiments could have not just been isolated to the Ocampa homeworld, but rather conducted on every habitable world for a few dozen light-years in every direction creating a vast region where water is so scarce.

Although why these 'peaceful explorers' would continue ravaging these habitable worlds once they realised how harmful their experiments were is hard to explain, so I'm assuming that what happened to the Ocampa planet was a one off.

I does look a bit like the writers mixed up the concept of the planet being without surface water and rain as the result of the fallout from the Nacene technology with water being scarce in that region of space.

Maybe the Nacene secretly like to obliterate the way of life of prewarp species in order to install themselves as godlike entities that live in the sky.

I know that's what I'd do.
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Old January 22 2012, 09:20 PM   #3
Shawnster
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Re: Caretaker - The lack of water?

That's only one of the many issues people had with Voyager (and many other scifi shows). On the surface (LOL) and first thought the idea sounds plausible. When reviewed again and again, however, the flaws start to stand out.

In short, there is no reason. There is no explanation how water could be removed from the entire planet, let alone the solar system.

Another oversight that people have mentioned concerns the Ocampa and their only haveing 1 child. If each couple only has one child, then the population decreases by 50% each generation. In no time the race would be extinct.
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Old January 22 2012, 09:28 PM   #4
Sandoval
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Re: Caretaker - The lack of water?

Shawnster wrote: View Post
In short, there is no reason. There is no explanation how water could be removed from the entire planet, let alone the solar system.
A really big straw.
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Another oversight that people have mentioned concerns the Ocampa and their only having 1 child. If each couple only has one child, then the population decreases by 50% each generation. In no time the race would be extinct.
Not necessarily.

Maybe 99% of babies born on Ocampa are female and the 1% of men that are born have a really fun time during their nine short-years.
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Old January 22 2012, 09:37 PM   #5
Timo
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Re: Caretaker - The lack of water?

He also says that 'no one around here wastes water in this manner' referring to baths and the like, but why would water be so scarce in this entire region of the Delta Quadrant?
We don't have to think it's the "entire region". This, after all, is what Neelix has to say about the matter later on, in greater specificity:

"Kazon sects control this part of the quadrant. Some have food, some have ore, some have water. They all trade and they all kill each other for it."
So first Neelix establishes who these people in front of the landing party are: the Kazon sects are the only players of note around, thus the ones fighting for the Ocampa riches. Then he further establishes that these local forces of said sects trade and kill in order to be able to stay on the planet and wait for their opening. Which then provides Neelix and the landing party with their opening.

After all, Neelix is not describing the galactic politics of Delta to Janeway in that scene. He's divulging partial truths about the immediate situation on the surface of the desert planet, in order to mislead Janeway into helping him in his personal quest.

So, no water shortage anywhere outside the Ocampa surface encampments (and not even on all of them). But a serious water shortage on this specific encampment, thus a way to manipulate these particular Kazon and liberate Kes.

On this issue, I'm not even convinced that the writers intended the sillier version where the whole quadrant suffers from thirst - the wording is just ambiguous, but the intent all along may have been to describe the situation suggested above. In contrast, the "Elogium" thing is just plain silly by obvious writer intent... But we could explain that one away, too. We just have to note that nowhere in the episode is it actually said that the Ocampa only give birth once!

What is said is that if an Ocampa female doesn't give birth when the elogium first hits, she has missed her chance for good. But if the first time goes all right, then a second, a third and for all we know a fiftieth try should be quite possible. All Kes and Neelix worry about is the first time, after all; we hear nothing about what happens beyond that.

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Old January 22 2012, 09:47 PM   #6
Sandoval
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Re: Caretaker - The lack of water?

I'd go with the essay explanation above.

Anyone who's dedicated enough to type their name at the end of every single post instead of just setting it as a signature must be onto something.

Sando Sandiemi
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Old January 22 2012, 10:03 PM   #7
You_Will_Fail
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Re: Caretaker - The lack of water?

It didn't make sense. The Kazon are able to fly at high warp, there's no reason they would even need to be on Ocampa.
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Old January 22 2012, 10:06 PM   #8
Sandoval
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Re: Caretaker - The lack of water?

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
It didn't make sense. The Kazon are able to fly at high warp, there's no reason they would even need to be on Ocampa.
Of course there is. To sit around and wait for any more blonde pixies to crawl out of the ground and lead you down to the Ocampan city.

Or to oversee a mining operation. Or cos they want nice suntans.

Loads of reasons.
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Old January 22 2012, 10:17 PM   #9
You_Will_Fail
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Re: Caretaker - The lack of water?

They can travel at high warp, they would be able to find any number of uninhabited planets to exploit or even primitive civilizations they could enslave.
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Old January 22 2012, 10:39 PM   #10
Sandoval
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Re: Caretaker - The lack of water?

Some people just like where they live. Access to local amenities, good schools, room to expand, nice views, pleasant neighbours etc...

The Ocampa planet likely had all these things.

Perhaps Jabin and his entourage had no interest in flying off and 'enslaving primitive civilisations' and instead wanted to improve where they lived by improving their home with running water and sanitation via the Ocampa City below them.
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Old January 22 2012, 11:32 PM   #11
MacLeod
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Re: Caretaker - The lack of water?

I try not to remember that Hydrogen and Oxygen are the 1st and 3rd most abundant elements by mass in the universe. Or remember High School Chemistry H2O. I could go on but I wouldn't want to highlight a plot chasm.
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Old January 22 2012, 11:55 PM   #12
Guy Gardener
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Re: Caretaker - The lack of water?

Frank and Sandoval already gave you the answer.

PARIS: Why would anyone want to live in a place like this?
NEELIX: The rich cormaline deposits are very much in demand.
CHAKOTAY: The Ocampa use it for barter?
NEELIX: Not the Ocampa, the Kazon-Ogla.
JANEWAY: The Kazon-Ogla? Who are the Kazon-Ogla?
NEELIX: They are. Kazon sects control this part of the quadrant. Some have food, some have ore, some have water. They all trade and they all kill each other for it.
JANEWAY: I thought you said the Ocampa had our people.
Ocampa is a fricking goldmine, no matter how the Jack Pack pooh poohed cormaline in Statistical Probability,
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Old January 23 2012, 02:04 PM   #13
Timo
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Re: Caretaker - The lack of water?

Anyone who's dedicated enough to type their name at the end of every single post instead of just setting it as a signature must be onto something.
I'm curious - who around here sets his real name as a signature?

Ocampa is a fricking goldmine
Plus, it's possible the Kazon aren't complete idiots. They might have noticed that the Caretaker array was worth raiding, if only the geezer himself could be distracted somehow. And since the Caretaker/Ocampa connection was pretty obvious, stalking next to the Ocampa dwellings might well prove worth the while.

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Old January 23 2012, 03:32 PM   #14
Guy Gardener
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Re: Caretaker - The lack of water?

Something like "You've come to investigate the Arrays irregular behaviour too Captain Janeway?"

The Array was for some reason a days march from Ocampa at cruising speed.

(High warp is faster. Go figure.)

Methinks that the array had to be were it was to take advantage of what ever natural resource it was tapping to run the Ocampan City, but that's hardly provable.
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Old January 23 2012, 03:41 PM   #15
RoJoHen
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Re: Caretaker - The lack of water?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
JANEWAY: The Kazon-Ogla? Who are the Kazon-Ogla?
This is my favorite line from the entire series because it sounds so ridiculous when Kate Mulgrew says it.
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