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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old January 18 2012, 01:12 PM   #61
7thsealord
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
7thsealord wrote: View Post
It is remarkably easy to moralize about what Data should have done, and how "murder" is unjustifiable (which last you have said quite a few times). But, despite how much you keep denying this, Data was in basically a survival situation. Fajo may not have actually killed Data if he surrendered, but he would certainly have taken steps (under threat of killing more innocents presumably) to prevent any further actions by Data. Very arguably something exceptionally nasty - lobotomization and/or crippling comes to mind.
Fajo would not have physically harmed Data in any way - he was too valuable to him.
Find myself wondering how many "Business associates" and employees of Fajo's made similar assertions.

Yes, he would prefer not to harm Data, and indeed actively sought not to do so when first ..... acquiring him. But, in the light of subsequent events, Fajo would certainly take further steps - he did show an especially high regard for his own safety and comfort, after all.

Also, as I already said, Fajo's care with his new toy would only last as long as it had novelty and did not pose any great problem or inconvenience for hiim. No further - we already saw how his employees fared.

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
You can think of imprisonment as a form of harm, but it's significantly less severe a form than death, so it would be the lesser of two evils.
Indeed. Compromise with and submit to someone who was completely untrustworthy and had no compunction about killing others. What could possibly go wrong?

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
7thsealord wrote: View Post
And it was very very clear that Fajo was not a being that could be trusted.
Absolutely, but nevertheless there was absolutely no guarantee that he would kill again if Data obeyed.

The comparison earlier to Riker shooting an assassin show up the differences perfectly. Firstly, she was an assassin (the clue's in the name); secondly, there was a 100% chance that she would have killed in the next few seconds had she been allowed to; and thirdly, a 100% chance that weaker forces were ineffective (because Riker tried that first). Killing her was the only option.

Data's position was entirely different. There was a possibility of Fajo being dangerous at an indeterminate point in future, and a possibility that something else could prevent this. All very wishy-washy, not clear-cut.
And if Data obeyed and he DID kill again, which was more than probable however much you pretend otherwise, them's the breaks huh? Data could always have shrugged and said, "Well. I COULD have prevented this, but it would have been morally wrong to do so."

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
I wouldn't trust him at all, but unless I was 100% sure that his survival would result in him killing again, I would have no other option but to surrender.

However, you have reminded me that Fajo wasn't even armed at this point! I had forgotten that entirely. That means there's even less of a logical justification for shooting, and Data could have found another way to incapacitate Fajo.
I believe that was already covered quite adequately. Fajo had a personal forcefield so hand-to-hand was not an option, and Data could not be reasonably sure of taking him out by flinging stuff at him either. I might al;so suggest that one only ASSUME he was unarmed - he advertised a couple of precautions beforehand, but did he mention all of them? No way of knowing.

Anyhow, we are both basically repeating ourselves now, so I think we will have to simply agree to disagree.
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Old January 18 2012, 02:21 PM   #62
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Excuse me Mr. Start Wreck but "Fajo unarmed"?
He had a posotronic sheild!
Firing that Veron-T Disruptor was the only course of action.
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Old January 18 2012, 02:22 PM   #63
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Tiberius wrote: View Post
If this was a trial, and you were faced with this evidence, would youy actually say that he hadn't fired the weapon?
Yes, actually. You are innocent until proven guilty. The burden would be on the prosecution to prove he fired.

Plus, the evidence is circumstantial. Disregarding "Realm of Fear" due to stupidity, how would one fire a disruptor during transport anyway? You are disintegrated when not at the destination or point of departure. And we know for a fact (visually) that he did not fire prior to transport. All he did was lean forward as though he was going to.
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Old January 18 2012, 02:47 PM   #64
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

7thsealord wrote: View Post
Find myself wondering how many "Business associates" and employees of Fajo's made similar assertions.

Yes, he would prefer not to harm Data, and indeed actively sought not to do so when first ..... acquiring him. But, in the light of subsequent events, Fajo would certainly take further steps - he did show an especially high regard for his own safety and comfort, after all.

Also, as I already said, Fajo's care with his new toy would only last as long as it had novelty and did not pose any great problem or inconvenience for hiim. No further - we already saw how his employees fared.
I don't see the comparison. Fajo hadn't damaged any of his other possessions as far as we know. He didn't get bored of those and get rid of them. Data was the pride of his collection. There's no way he would have damaged or killed him.

7thsealord wrote: View Post
Indeed. Compromise with and submit to someone who was completely untrustworthy and had no compunction about killing others. What could possibly go wrong?
Well, something could easily go wrong, but it isn't guaranteed.
Whereas if Data shoots, something definitely goes wrong - somebody dies.

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
And if Data obeyed and he DID kill again, which was more than probable however much you pretend otherwise, them's the breaks huh? Data could always have shrugged and said, "Well. I COULD have prevented this, but it would have been morally wrong to do so."
I'm not pretending, I'm stating my honest opinion, based on what's there. Show me the evidence that makes it guaranteed that he would kill again. All you have is a hunch. A hunch is not sufficient for taking a life, even that of a criminal.

But I ask again, if you think Data firing was the morally right thing to do, why did he lie about it?

It only makes sense, both narratively (why did he lie?) and dramatically (he did something wrong) if he wasn't morally bound to shoot. If you think he was morally bound to shoot, then you need to counter all these points first.

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
I believe that was already covered quite adequately. Fajo had a personal forcefield so hand-to-hand was not an option, and Data could not be reasonably sure of taking him out by flinging stuff at him either. I might al;so suggest that one only ASSUME he was unarmed - he advertised a couple of precautions beforehand, but did he mention all of them? No way of knowing.
We know that Fajo had no weapon in his hand, ergo nobody was in immediate danger. Had he then drawn a weapon, Data would have been within his right to shoot, because then there would be an immediate threat. Do you not see the difference?

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
Anyhow, we are both basically repeating ourselves now, so I think we will have to simply agree to disagree.
I don't agree to that.

DataLoreSpock wrote: View Post
Excuse me Mr. Start Wreck but "Fajo unarmed"?
He had a posotronic sheild!
Firing that Veron-T Disruptor was the only course of action.
The shield wasn't a weapon, it was a defence, and it wasn't dangerous to anybody but Data. (ie. Fajo couldn't use it to harm one of his crew.)
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Old January 18 2012, 04:07 PM   #65
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

DataLoreSpock wrote: View Post
Excuse me Mr. Start Wreck but "Fajo unarmed"?
He had a posotronic sheild!
Firing that Veron-T Disruptor was the only course of action.
Oh no! Fajo has a magic bubble that stops Data from touching him! He MUST die!

Or, as I have said many times already, Data can force Fajo into the escape pod (shoot the floor near his feet and Fajo will move), then Data can shoot the console to make sure that Fajo can't do anything inside the escape pod, then he can leave and lock the door.

Hey! Fajo is locked up! Data can then take control of the ship and go find the Enterprise.

But to say that Data had no choice but to kill an unarmed man who was in no position to hurt anyone is ludicrous.
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Old January 18 2012, 04:11 PM   #66
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Tiberius wrote: View Post
DataLoreSpock wrote: View Post
Excuse me Mr. Start Wreck but "Fajo unarmed"?
He had a posotronic sheild!
Firing that Veron-T Disruptor was the only course of action.
Oh no! Fajo has a magic bubble that stops Data from touching him! He MUST die!

Or, as I have said many times already, Data can force Fajo into the escape pod (shoot the floor near his feet and Fajo will move), then Data can shoot the console to make sure that Fajo can't do anything inside the escape pod, then he can leave and lock the door.

Hey! Fajo is locked up! Data can then take control of the ship and go find the Enterprise.

But to say that Data had no choice but to kill an unarmed man who was in no position to hurt anyone is ludicrous.
One too many shots for the single shot Veron-T. Plus you're working under the assumption that none of the crew are loyal to Fajo.

EDIT: Not sure where I got the idea the disruptor could fire a single shot. Sucks getting old and the memory goes...
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Old January 18 2012, 05:18 PM   #67
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Tosk wrote: View Post
Disregarding "Realm of Fear" due to stupidity, how would one fire a disruptor during transport anyway?
The weapon wasn't fired during transport, it was already being fired when the transport occurred. I'm assuming Data hit the trigger and then the beam-out happened.
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Old January 18 2012, 05:18 PM   #68
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Well, we have to assume that the Varon T had plenty of ammo left.

And even if none of the crew were going to go against Fajo, so what? Data could run the ship by himself enough to find the enterprise. And I'm sure he'd have a good chance of locking the crew up or incapacitating them somehow. He's still got a deadly weapon, remember, which works perfectly well for a threat.

So I stand by my claim that there was absolutely NO justification for Data to try to kill Fajo.
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Old January 18 2012, 05:20 PM   #69
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Maybe it wasn't the *entire* crew who remained loyal to Fajo, but I'm guessing that a fair amount of them were. Varria did say that while Fajo's punishments were brutal, his rewards for loyalty were 'lavish'.
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Old January 18 2012, 05:23 PM   #70
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Well, we have to assume that the Varon T had plenty of ammo left.

And even if none of the crew were going to go against Fajo, so what? Data could run the ship by himself enough to find the enterprise. And I'm sure he'd have a good chance of locking the crew up or incapacitating them somehow. He's still got a deadly weapon, remember, which works perfectly well for a threat.

So I stand by my claim that there was absolutely NO justification for Data to try to kill Fajo.
Except that Fajo deserved it. He's a murderer, a kidnapper and a theif who existed outside of Federation jurisdiction for a long time and Data had no clue whether they would ever catch up to him.
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Old January 18 2012, 05:32 PM   #71
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

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Except that Fajo deserved it.
You'd hope that the Federation is above considering that justice.
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Old January 18 2012, 05:37 PM   #72
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

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Except that Fajo deserved it.
You'd hope that the Federation is above considering that justice.
In most cases, yes. But Fajo, in Data's estimation, was going to continue getting away with serious crimes indefinitely. The more he got away with the more brazen his actions would've become. He poisoned someone's water supply just to acquire Data.

Sometimes you just gotta burn the SOB down. Even Data realized it.
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Old January 18 2012, 05:42 PM   #73
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

That may well have been what Data was thinking (though I doubt the script's idea actually went farther than "let Data do something that appears emotionally motivated, and then let people wonder what, knowing he isn't capable of it, actually went on inside his head"), but that doesn't mean he had justification to act in that way. We're basically discussing whether Data was about to do something illegal, but with the available data we can't really tell, so by way of presumption of innocence he goes free.
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Old January 18 2012, 05:45 PM   #74
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Sho wrote: View Post
That may well have been what Data was thinking (though I doubt the script's idea actually went farther than "let Data do something that appears emotionally motivated, and then let people wonder what, knowing he isn't capable of it, actually went on inside his head"), but that doesn't mean he had justification to act in that way. We're basically discussing whether Data was about to do something illegal, but with the available data we can't really tell, so by way of presumption of innocence he goes free.
As an abducted Starfleet officer, I'm not sure that Data's actions can be unilaterally declared illegal.
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Old January 18 2012, 05:48 PM   #75
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Anyone who argues Data had a legal or moral right to shoot Fajo needs to explain why he lied about it, otherwise the argument doesn't hold up.
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