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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old January 18 2012, 02:04 AM   #46
TerragonSix
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

I think what a lot of people miss is that Data was always, "Striving to be more human."

Put yourself in his place. Consider your options. See what he seen and experienced what he saw on Fajo's ship.

Look me in the eyes and tell me you wouldn't have pulled that trigger.

Personally, Fajo would've been dead before his little speech about me returning to my room. I would've not minded in the least watching him die from the disruptor that he killed my comrade with that was helping me to escape.

I suppose you could point at me and tell me how cruel that is... but the world (and I assume, the galaxy) is a pretty cruel place to be sometimes.

War is hell.
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Old January 18 2012, 02:33 AM   #47
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Well said.

All very well to talk of "ideal" solutions, but the biggest problem with these is that they require ideal situations to start with.
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Old January 18 2012, 03:14 AM   #48
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Why do people keep referring to Fajo's crew as "innocents"?

They were criminals just like Fajo, were they not?
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Old January 18 2012, 03:36 AM   #49
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

I believe quite a few were 'slaves', or, more along the lines of 'indentured servants'
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Last edited by TerragonSix; January 18 2012 at 03:52 AM.
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Old January 18 2012, 03:44 AM   #50
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Oops. Well, that's different then.

I should really watch the episode again. It's been too long.

Last edited by Tosk; January 18 2012 at 03:47 AM. Reason: Spelling
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Old January 18 2012, 03:45 AM   #51
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

billcosby wrote: View Post
He didn't lie. He said "perhaps something occurred during transport."
Which created a certain impression. Data would have known this. he was being intentionally vague, and was speaking to give Riker the impression that something happened which did not happen. Close enough to a lie for me.

Tosk wrote: View Post
OR he just feigned firing because wanted Fajo to think he was going to kill him. Prove otherwise.
Well, let's say that the Enterprise hadn't come to the rescue. What would have happened? Five, ten seconds go by, and Fajo is like, "Well, are you going to shoot me or not? No? I guess I'll be going then."

Besides, O'Brien stated that the weapon had discharged, so Data wasn't faking.

TerragonSix wrote: View Post
When I watched it, I thought Data would do it. It was a justifable action; to prevent further harm to others, the only way he could end that would be to kill Fajo, or himself.
Who was Fajo in a position to harm at that point in time? Not Varria, she was already dead and killing Fajo wouldn't change that. Not Data, Fajo was unarmed and defenseless. Seems to me that Data should have incapacitated Fajo (don't tell me that Data can't knock a person out from across the room, he can pick something up and throw it if need be), and then taken Fajo back to stand trial. He could have also forced Fajo into the escape craft, disabled the computers of the escape craft and then locked him in there. Presto, Fajo's in a makeshift jail cell! Data could then easily take control of Fajo's ship.

Simple fact is that there was no one who was in direct immediate threat by Fajo at the time, and Data's firing of the weapon was completely unjustified.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Why would Data have shot Fajo with a weapon that kills so horribly and agonizingly as the Varon-T does? Couldn't he have attacked Fajo hand-to-hand and disabled him without killing him?
No. Data could not beat Fajo in hand to hand combat because Fajo had that positronic inhibitor or whatever it was that threw data around the room earlier in the episode. Data had to work on the idea that he would not be able to defeat Fajo hand to hand. But like I said, Data could have picked something up and thrown it at fajo to hit him on the head and knock him out (Data's not going to miss!), or he could have disabled the escape pod and forced Fajo into it to confine him.

DataLoreSpock wrote: View Post
That guy in the background was before he left.
Fajo: You will return to your room and you will sit in your chair you will entertain me and my guests or I will simply kill another person, him. (motions to the guy on the floor behind him)
Data: I can not allow this to continue.
Fajo would have killed a lot of people in otder to get what he wanted.
I do not condone murder but then again Data did not know if the Enterprise would find him and Data knew that Fajo's crew was loyal to him.
That guy in the background was in no danger at all. Fajo was going to kill him? How? Fajo had thrown his own weapon away! Unless Fajo was going to punch the guy to death, he had no weapons? And if he tried that, Data would be able to stop him. Like I said before, pick something up and throw it at Fajo to knock him out, or shoot the floor between Fajo and that guy in order to stop Fajo. And if Fajo tried to pick his weapon up, then Data could simply shoot the weapon, vaporising it. No one was in any danger.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Except for Data who had his freedom taken from him. A trinket to be bought and sold at the whim of others...

Data fired and was justified in doing so.
Except Data had already escaped. he was out of the cell, Fajo was unarmed and could not possibly get into a position to hurt someone without Data being able to stop him, and Data had the ability to confine Fajo in the escape pod. Data had got back his freedom.

sonak wrote: View Post
Data wasn't angry, he was making a rational decision that Fajo had to be stopped, you can see him processing that decision before he raises the gun.

he says "I cannot permit this to continue" in the same flat voice in which he'd give a routine report.
There's nothing rational about deciding to kill someone when you can accomplish the same thing without killing them.

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
We'll have to agree to disagree, then. Given the circumstances presented in the episode, I see no evidence that Fajo would have killed again had Data surrendered.
REALLY?

Here is a person who has murdered at least once, and he has shown that he is perfectly comfortable with kidnap and who knows what other crimes against people, and you;d be happy to say that you would trust him not to kill again?

Fajo's dialogue being antagonistic (taunting) is precisely the point; if not, why was it written like that?
Oh, he was trying to taunt Data, yes. But I will not believe that Data would have responded to it with an emotional outburst.

Think about it: if you're trying to write an interesting drama, you don't make the decision an easy one. If Data's actions are logically justifiable, then the resolution is boring. "He did what he had to do to save lives" is dramatically dull, whereas "he acted beyond his programming, emotionally" is the stuff of meaty character development. Or it would be if anything ever came of it. They left the ending "ambiguous" as a get-out clause, I suppose.
Except that Data's character at the time was clearly INCAPABLE of experiencing emotions. Besdies, we know what Data would do if he actually experienced an emotion. he'd try to re create it. We saw him do that in Descent. Yet we never hear of him trying to explore any emotion he felt on Fajo's ship. The only logical conclusion is that Data didn't experience any.

TerragonSix wrote: View Post
I think what a lot of people miss is that Data was always, "Striving to be more human."

Put yourself in his place. Consider your options. See what he seen and experienced what he saw on Fajo's ship.

Look me in the eyes and tell me you wouldn't have pulled that trigger.
Whether we would have or not is irrelevant, because we have emotions and Data didn't.

Simply put, the whole idea that Data would shoot Fajo in an effort to murder him is very badly written and completely out of character. There was nothing at all that would force Data into that situation.
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Old January 18 2012, 03:52 AM   #52
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Tiberius wrote: View Post
billcosby wrote: View Post
He didn't lie. He said "perhaps something occurred during transport."
Which created a certain impression. Data would have known this. he was being intentionally vague, and was speaking to give Riker the impression that something happened which did not happen. Close enough to a lie for me.
It's only a lie if he did in fact fire. Nothing in the episode proves that he did. The only thing that says he did fire is supposition based on a pause and some facial expressions. Hardly conclusive.

TV is fine for a glib answer, but within the show itself, Data would have had to submit a detailed official report. Do you think he lied on that too?

Is Data a liar and would-be murderer?
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Old January 18 2012, 04:40 AM   #53
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Well, its not the only time Data 'lied' or was intentionally vague, isn't it?

What about the episode, 'Clues'? Not only did Data intentionally lie, but disobeyed orders.

So, it is within his character do act like this, so as long as he has a a reason that is justifiable, according to Data.

Right before he was transported, Data even says "I cannot permit this to continue." Permit what to continue? The endless cycle of Fajo killing people in order for his new play toy to obey? That seems to be what Data was talking about.

Even if Data did 'murder' Fajo, who kidnapped him, incidentally, he would not have faced a Starfleet court-martial. If Worf can go on the lam and kill the man who murdered his wife out of pure vengeance (Episode: Reunion) and only get a reprimand, I don't see Data getting a court martial for 'Escaping his captive by any means necessary.'

"Data has emotions and we don't, therefore what we would do is irrelevant?" - Quote from poster.

You point out a difference between Data as an Android, and us as Humans, that Data does NOT have feelings or emotions. However, we do understand, and it HAS been established, that Data feels he has rights, ("The Measure Of A Man"), and he does have feelings, like he did with Tasha Yar. Data even hesitated to respond about Tasha about his feelings for that episode, saying that he, "Gave his word."

I suppose that an android in a court-martial, since he is bound by Starfleet oath to answer any and all questions at a court-martial efficiently and forthcoming, without hesitation? (No, not really.)

The truth is, Data did have feelings, as early as Season 1. They may not be feelings that you or I feel, its more like a wet sponge absorbing the rudimentary aspects of it.

Look, Data had every intention to fire on Fajo. A hear a lot of people about, "Well, why didn't he just throw the phaser at Fajor and knocked him out? Even though Data is an amazing machine, he is not infalliable. For example, in "The Royale", the first two times Data threw the Dice on the table, he did not throw a seven or eleven.

Data is surveying the options while Fajo is giving his taunting speech. He could throw the Varon-T disuptor at Fajo, but there is a chance he could miss. What if Fajo managed to get out of the way? Data threw away his only method of defense and protection. The probability of success is less likely doing that than simply killing Fajo.

Fajo has demonstrated that he would kill people on a whim if Data does not obey his orders. Data is self-aware of his rights, and is aware of his duties as a Starfleet officer. In order to prevent Fajo from killing more people, AND to allow Data to return to Starfleet, the only logical recourse would be to kill Fajo.
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Old January 18 2012, 04:54 AM   #54
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Tosk wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Fajo is obviously untrustworthy and a liar. I see absolutely no reason to take anything he says at face value.
If that's true, you must also distrust his assertion that he will kill again, therefore no one is in danger.

Anyway, IF Data did fire, he is a liar too.
Data did not deny that he fired. Not exactly. He weaseled his way out of it, but technically speaking he did not actually say he did NOT fire the weapon. And therefore he did not lie.

As for Fajo: Liar though he may be, the risk that he really would kill again (regardless of what he said he would do) was too great to ignore.
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Old January 18 2012, 05:14 AM   #55
TerragonSix
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

By the way, another little interesting piece of evidence:

Right after he says, "I cannot permit this to continue."



Note at this time, he has his finger off the trigger, which is located on the top/rear part of the disruptor. Just like a shooter in real life drawing his weapon to fire, his finger off the trigger, resting alongside the trigger guard.

Moments before he is transported out:


He has his arm extended, finger on the trigger, disruptor pointed right at Fajo. If you have your weapon pointed at someone with your finger on the trigger, you better intend on neutralizing the target. That's not only the proper way to do it (in real life police and military training), but makes common sense.

Hope this puts to rest any doubt that Data wasn't going to kill Fajo. He was.
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Old January 18 2012, 05:30 AM   #56
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

TerragonSix wrote: View Post
Hope this puts to rest any doubt that Data wasn't going to kill Fajo.
It doesn't.

I don't think anyone is arguing what it looks like what was going to happen. And I contend that Data does seem evasive when quizzed about the weapon discharging.

The facts are that Data is not seen to fire, and we have no hard evidence either way, only appearances and supposition. That's why it's fun to debate it. If we had hard facts, there'd be no debate.
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Old January 18 2012, 06:43 AM   #57
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Tosk wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
billcosby wrote: View Post
He didn't lie. He said "perhaps something occurred during transport."
Which created a certain impression. Data would have known this. he was being intentionally vague, and was speaking to give Riker the impression that something happened which did not happen. Close enough to a lie for me.
It's only a lie if he did in fact fire. Nothing in the episode proves that he did. The only thing that says he did fire is supposition based on a pause and some facial expressions. Hardly conclusive.
Nothing says he fired the weapon?

O'BRIEN
I'm reading a weapon in transit
with Commander Data. It seems
to have discharged, sir.

O'Brien's transporter panel is telling him that the weapon has fired. Data was holding it. Therefore, Data fired the weapon.

TerragonSix wrote: View Post
Hope this puts to rest any doubt that Data wasn't going to kill Fajo. He was.
Oh, I don't doubt that Data was going to and actively trying to kill Fajo. My point is that it was very bad writing and completely out of character. Fajo was not at that point in a position to threaten anyone (he had thrown away his weapon), and Data had several options he could take to stop Fajo getting his weapon back and several options to restrain him. Data did not need to try to kill him.

And then he did not clearly state what he was doing when he was beamed back. He tried to evade the whole thing.
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Old January 18 2012, 07:47 AM   #58
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Nothing says he fired the weapon?

O'BRIEN
I'm reading a weapon in transit
with Commander Data. It seems
to have discharged, sir.

O'Brien's transporter panel is telling him that the weapon has fired. Data was holding it. Therefore, Data fired the weapon.
O'Brien's panel is telling him that the weapon discharged during transport. That's different to "Data fired the weapon". Perhaps something occured during transport?

I know that's semantics, but the Devil's Advocate partakes of many antics.
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Old January 18 2012, 11:54 AM   #59
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

7thsealord wrote: View Post
It is remarkably easy to moralize about what Data should have done, and how "murder" is unjustifiable (which last you have said quite a few times). But, despite how much you keep denying this, Data was in basically a survival situation. Fajo may not have actually killed Data if he surrendered, but he would certainly have taken steps (under threat of killing more innocents presumably) to prevent any further actions by Data. Very arguably something exceptionally nasty - lobotomization and/or crippling comes to mind.
Fajo would not have physically harmed Data in any way - he was too valuable to him.

You can think of imprisonment as a form of harm, but it's significantly less severe a form than death, so it would be the lesser of two evils.

7thsealord wrote: View Post
And it was very very clear that Fajo was not a being that could be trusted.
Absolutely, but nevertheless there was absolutely no guarantee that he would kill again if Data obeyed.

The comparison earlier to Riker shooting an assassin show up the differences perfectly. Firstly, she was an assassin (the clue's in the name); secondly, there was a 100% chance that she would have killed in the next few seconds had she been allowed to; and thirdly, a 100% chance that weaker forces were ineffective (because Riker tried that first). Killing her was the only option.

Data's position was entirely different. There was a possibility of Fajo being dangerous at an indeterminate point in future, and a possibility that something else could prevent this. All very wishy-washy, not clear-cut.

Tiberius wrote: View Post
REALLY?

Here is a person who has murdered at least once, and he has shown that he is perfectly comfortable with kidnap and who knows what other crimes against people, and you;d be happy to say that you would trust him not to kill again?
I wouldn't trust him at all, but unless I was 100% sure that his survival would result in him killing again, I would have no other option but to surrender.

However, you have reminded me that Fajo wasn't even armed at this point! I had forgotten that entirely. That means there's even less of a logical justification for shooting, and Data could have found another way to incapacitate Fajo.



Tiberius wrote: View Post
Oh, he was trying to taunt Data, yes. But I will not believe that Data would have responded to it with an emotional outburst.
You can disbelieve it but I'm fairly sure it was the writer's intention. It's the only answer that makes sense.

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Except that Data's character at the time was clearly INCAPABLE of experiencing emotions. Besdies, we know what Data would do if he actually experienced an emotion. he'd try to re create it. We saw him do that in Descent. Yet we never hear of him trying to explore any emotion he felt on Fajo's ship. The only logical conclusion is that Data didn't experience any.
Nope, Data is capable of experiencing emotions in his own way. He's just apparently oblivious to it. He rationalises his emotions as neural pathway responses (or whatever) but the truth of it is, Data is capable of experiencing emotional responses. He doesn't understand them, he doesn't even realise what they are, but they are shown time and time again to be there, peeking out above the surface.

The emotion chip (from Descent and Generations onwards) is a more overt type of emotion, that's why he was aware of it (and later crippled by it).
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Old January 18 2012, 12:38 PM   #60
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Tosk wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
Nothing says he fired the weapon?

O'BRIEN
I'm reading a weapon in transit
with Commander Data. It seems
to have discharged, sir.

O'Brien's transporter panel is telling him that the weapon has fired. Data was holding it. Therefore, Data fired the weapon.
O'Brien's panel is telling him that the weapon discharged during transport. That's different to "Data fired the weapon". Perhaps something occured during transport?

I know that's semantics, but the Devil's Advocate partakes of many antics.
yes it is playing with semantics. Data was aiming the weapon at Fajo. He had his finger on the trigger. THe transporter sensors registered that the weapon had been discharged.

If this was a trial, and you were faced with this evidence, would youy actually say that he hadn't fired the weapon?
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