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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old January 17 2012, 10:58 AM   #16
Tosk
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Ziz wrote: View Post
Tosk wrote: View Post
OR he just feigned firing because he wanted Fajo to think he was going to kill him. Prove otherwise.
He didn't fake it.

O'BRIEN: I'm reading a weapon in transit with Commander Data. It seems to have discharged, sir.
RIKER: Discharged?
O'BRIEN: I'm deactivating it.
RIKER: Welcome back, Mister Data. Are you all right?
DATA: Yes, Commander. Please arrange to take Kivas Fajo into custody on charges of murder, kidnapping, theft.
RIKER: The arrangements have already been made.
DATA: A Varon-T disruptor. It belongs to Fajo.
RIKER: Mister O'Brien says the weapon was in a state of discharge.
DATA: Perhaps something occurred during transport, Commander.
That dialogue (if taken at face value) backs up my "OR". It only takes on another meaning if you read between the lines. And between those lines is the fact that Data is a liar and potential murderer.
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Old January 17 2012, 12:06 PM   #17
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
TerragonSix wrote: View Post
It was a justifable action; to prevent further harm to others, the only way he could end that would be to kill Fajo, or himself.
He could have ended it without killing anybody. He could have surrended his freedom and obeyed Fajo - if not forever, then for long enough to find an alternative.
By choosing to kill Fajo, Data was placing his own freedom above somebody's life.

Fajo had murdered, but one murder doesn't excuse another.

This has always bothered me.
So, Data should have passively allowed Fajo to continue doing what he did?

Who is to say how many more people Fajo would have killed if allowed to continue? Murder didn't bother him at all, so I also have to wonder how much death and destruction could be laid at Fajo's door already.

Data had no way of knowing if/when he would ever have any other oppurtunity to stop Fajo from hurting / killing anybody else. Certainly, after that particular fracas, Fajo would have become even more cautious - and undoubtedly taken a bunch of extra precautions to keep Data bottled up.

Data did what he had to. At least one life had been lost already, and more would certainly be lost if Fajo remained at large. I don't have any problem at all with Data's actions. I might question his evasions (and that is all they are) after the fact, but very very mildly.
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Old January 17 2012, 01:43 PM   #18
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

7thsealord wrote: View Post
Who is to say how many more people Fajo would have killed if allowed to continue?
If Data did what Fajo wanted of him: none, probably. That was the purpose of the choice, anyway: "become my possession and I will harm no-one else; don't, and I'll kill again."

Killing somebody because they *might* kill somebody else in future is not justifiable. No-one was in immediate danger in this instance.
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Old January 17 2012, 02:02 PM   #19
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

That guy in the background was before he left.
Fajo: You will return to your room and you will sit in your chair you will entertain me and my guests or I will simply kill another person, him. (motions to the guy on the floor behind him)
Data: I can not allow this to continue.
Fajo would have killed a lot of people in otder to get what he wanted.
I do not condone murder but then again Data did not know if the Enterprise would find him and Data knew that Fajo's crew was loyal to him.
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Old January 17 2012, 02:05 PM   #20
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

(Spelling error)
That guy in the background was before he left.
Fajo: You will return to your room and you will sit in your chair you will entertain me and my guests or I will simply kill another person, him. (motions to the guy on the floor behind him)
Data: I can not allow this to continue.
Fajo would have killed a lot of people in order to get what he wanted.
I do not condone murder but then again Data did not know if the Enterprise would find him and Data knew that Fajo's crew was loyal to him.
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Old January 17 2012, 02:40 PM   #21
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
7thsealord wrote: View Post
Who is to say how many more people Fajo would have killed if allowed to continue?
If Data did what Fajo wanted of him: none, probably.
Dream on.

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
That was the purpose of the choice, anyway: "become my possession and I will harm no-one else; don't, and I'll kill again."
The word of someone who had absolutely zero compunction about killing or enslaving any sentient to get what he wanted. Noting also that, once Data was properly secured, he would not be in a position to monitor Fajo's activities or hold him to any promises.

Yep, no problem there.

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
Killing somebody because they *might* kill somebody else in future is not justifiable. No-one was in immediate danger in this instance.
At least until Fajo got bored and set his sights on some other new toy or amusement. That would happen, certainly.

Do you REALLY think that once he had Data in his collection, Fajo would then never collect (read: steal) anything else, or refrain from killing, harming or enlaving anybody else if it suited him to do so? I don't.
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Old January 17 2012, 02:45 PM   #22
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

I agree with 7thsealord.
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Old January 17 2012, 02:45 PM   #23
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

7thsealord wrote: View Post
Do you REALLY think that once he had Data in his collection, Fajo would then never collect (read: steal) anything else, or refrain from killing, harming or enlaving anybody else if it suited him to do so? I don't.
Nobody could say with 100% certainty, and that in itself makes killing him unjustifiable.
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Old January 17 2012, 02:47 PM   #24
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
TerragonSix wrote: View Post
It was a justifable action; to prevent further harm to others, the only way he could end that would be to kill Fajo, or himself.
He could have ended it without killing anybody. He could have surrended his freedom and obeyed Fajo - if not forever, then for long enough to find an alternative.
By choosing to kill Fajo, Data was placing his own freedom above somebody's life.

Fajo had murdered, but one murder doesn't excuse another.

This has always bothered me.
On the contrary, he was putting up the lives of innocents (the people Fajo would've killed had Data not obeyed, OR, who's to say Fajo would've killed them anyway as a 'reminder' to Data) above Fajo's life. 'I cannot permit this to continue.'

I suppose, guys like Hitler or Osama Bin Laden did not deserve to die, along your line of reasoning.
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Old January 17 2012, 02:52 PM   #25
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

TerragonSix wrote: View Post
On the contrary, he was putting up the lives of innocents (the people Fajo would've killed had Data not obeyed, OR, who's to say Fajo would've killed them anyway as a 'reminder' to Data) above Fajo's life. 'I cannot permit this to continue.'
The bit before the "OR" (ie. had Data not obeyed) is irrelevant. I'm saying he should have obeyed in order to save as many lives as possible - innocents' and Fajo's.

The bit after the "OR" is supposition. He may have killed nobody. In fact, he didn't. He was caught.

TerragonSix wrote: View Post
I suppose, guys like Hitler or Osama Bin Laden did not deserve to die, along your line of reasoning.
I don't believe death is a justifiable form of punishment, no.
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Old January 17 2012, 02:53 PM   #26
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

When it comes down to that, I quote Spock
"The good of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
It was either satisfy Fajo or let innocent people die.
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Old January 17 2012, 03:16 PM   #27
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
I don't believe death is a justifiable form of punishment, no.
Punishment, no.

But it is amazingly effective at stopping a murderer from hurting or killing anyone else. As far as Data knew at that point in time, he had no other options.
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Old January 17 2012, 03:18 PM   #28
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
7thsealord wrote: View Post
Do you REALLY think that once he had Data in his collection, Fajo would then never collect (read: steal) anything else, or refrain from killing, harming or enlaving anybody else if it suited him to do so? I don't.
Nobody could say with 100% certainty, and that in itself makes killing him unjustifiable.
Then I'll say it with 101% certainty. Fajo would not have kept his word.
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Old January 17 2012, 03:55 PM   #29
Start Wreck
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

7thsealord wrote: View Post
Punishment, no.

But it is amazingly effective at stopping a murderer from hurting or killing anyone else.
That doesn't justify it either, unless it's done in a moment of panic for the purposes of defence / protection. Ie. if he was actively firing his weapon at people and needed to be stopped there and then, shooting him would be justifiable.

In the situation presented here, however, Fajo isn't immediately endangering anybody unless Data disobeys him.

7thsealord wrote: View Post
As far as Data knew at that point in time, he had no other options.
He had the option of surrender. This could result in more people dying or in no people dying. Pulling the trigger results in the definite death of one person.

Data couldn't be 100% sure that Fajo would kill again. It's impossible, even for an android with a brain capable of weighing up millions of possible scenarios in a split second, to know for sure what would happen.

So how sure do you have to be? Ninety-nine percent? Seventy-five percent?


7thsealord wrote: View Post
Then I'll say it with 101% certainty. Fajo would not have kept his word.
Ignoring the fact that that makes no sense, you're already wrong, because he was caught before he could do any more harm. How can you be totally sure that something will happen when it already definitely didn't?
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Old January 17 2012, 04:09 PM   #30
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Start Wreck wrote: View Post

Killing somebody because they *might* kill somebody else in future is not justifiable. No-one was in immediate danger in this instance.
Except for Data who had his freedom taken from him. A trinket to be bought and sold at the whim of others...

Data fired and was justified in doing so.
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