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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old February 4 2012, 04:15 AM   #151
Captain Fine
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

There's just something satisfying about a morally contemptible character getting their comeuppance.
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Old February 4 2012, 04:35 AM   #152
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Captain Fine wrote: View Post
There's just something satisfying about a morally contemptible character getting their comeuppance.
I so agree with that....it was good that Fajo was busted for what he did. Because he murdered in cold blood with no remorse whatsoever and was prepared to do it again.
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Old February 4 2012, 04:51 AM   #153
Tiberius
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

BillJ wrote: View Post
In Theory wrote:

JENNA: What were you just thinking?
DATA: In that particular moment, I was reconfiguring the warp field parameters, analyzing the collected works of Charles Dickens, calculating the maximum pressure I could safely apply to your lips, considering a new food supplement for Spot.
So I think I can safely assume that Data went through every possible scenario and still figured the best course of action was to shoot Fajo...
From an in universe point of view, perhaps. However, I feel that the option I have presented would work, and since Data didn't choose to do it, there must have been some problem with it. I can't see what that problem is, and no one in this thread has been able to explain it.

Of course, from a real world stand point, the answer is simple - it was just bad writing.
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Old February 4 2012, 05:23 AM   #154
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Lt_Rowy wrote: View Post
I so agree with that....it was good that Fajo was busted for what he did. Because he murdered in cold blood with no remorse whatsoever and was prepared to do it again.
Kind of scared to read an opinion like that in a Trek forum ... I'd expect Trekkies to be against capital punishment, I guess.
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Old February 4 2012, 03:01 PM   #155
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Tiberius wrote: View Post

From an in universe point of view, perhaps. However, I feel that the option I have presented would work, and since Data didn't choose to do it, there must have been some problem with it. I can't see what that problem is, and no one in this thread has been able to explain it.

Of course, from a real world stand point, the answer is simple - it was just bad writing.
It's not bad writing. It's consistent with the character that we'd known up to that point. Just because the writers' went in a direction you personally don't approve of doesn't make it 'bad writing'.

The scenario I see in The Most Toys is far more believable than the scenario you continue to promote here. Data may not be human. But guess what? The person writing all his ethical subroutines was. It was the same person writing Lore's ethical subroutines.

Sho wrote: View Post
Lt_Rowy wrote: View Post
I so agree with that....it was good that Fajo was busted for what he did. Because he murdered in cold blood with no remorse whatsoever and was prepared to do it again.
Kind of scared to read an opinion like that in a Trek forum ... I'd expect Trekkies to be against capital punishment, I guess.
I don't think fighting and killing to ensure your own freedom is the same as being pro-capital punishment. I've taken every view here as what people would do in Data's place. I'm against capital punishment except for the most heinous crimes that include children, but I'd have burned Fajo to the ground to ensure my own life and freedom in a heartbeat.
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Old February 4 2012, 09:58 PM   #156
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

BillJ wrote: View Post
Sho wrote: View Post
Lt_Rowy wrote: View Post
I so agree with that....it was good that Fajo was busted for what he did. Because he murdered in cold blood with no remorse whatsoever and was prepared to do it again.
Kind of scared to read an opinion like that in a Trek forum ... I'd expect Trekkies to be against capital punishment, I guess.
I don't think fighting and killing to ensure your own freedom is the same as being pro-capital punishment. I've taken every view here as what people would do in Data's place. I'm against capital punishment except for the most heinous crimes that include children, but I'd have burned Fajo to the ground to ensure my own life and freedom in a heartbeat.
Totally agreed. Capital punishment and escaping a sadistic kidnapper are totally different things.
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Old February 4 2012, 10:09 PM   #157
Tiberius
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

BillJ wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post

From an in universe point of view, perhaps. However, I feel that the option I have presented would work, and since Data didn't choose to do it, there must have been some problem with it. I can't see what that problem is, and no one in this thread has been able to explain it.

Of course, from a real world stand point, the answer is simple - it was just bad writing.
It's not bad writing. It's consistent with the character that we'd known up to that point. Just because the writers' went in a direction you personally don't approve of doesn't make it 'bad writing'.

The scenario I see in The Most Toys is far more believable than the scenario you continue to promote here. Data may not be human. But guess what? The person writing all his ethical subroutines was. It was the same person writing Lore's ethical subroutines.
What?

How is it consistent?

We have a character up until this point who has had no emotions, no sign that he's ever had any, and has always been eager to explain things, perhaps in more detail than was absolutely necessary. And now, he decides that an EXECUTION is the only possible course of action, despite the fact that Fajo was unarmed, and then he refuses to say what was really happening?

In what universe is this consistent with the way Data had been written or portrayed up until that point?
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Old February 4 2012, 10:18 PM   #158
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

Tiberius wrote: View Post

What?

How is it consistent?

We have a character up until this point who has had no emotions, no sign that he's ever had any, and has always been eager to explain things, perhaps in more detail than was absolutely necessary. And now, he decides that an EXECUTION is the only possible course of action, despite the fact that Fajo was unarmed, and then he refuses to say what was really happening?

In what universe is this consistent with the way Data had been written or portrayed up until that point?
Do you really want to do this?

In season one's Datalore, Data tosses his own 'brother' into a transporter beam that was focused on open space and had no problems doing it.

Then we'll look at this exchange from Skin of Evil, that you've consistently ignored...

Skin of Evil wrote:

DATA: Curious. (the phaser drops) You are capable of great sadism and cruelty. Interesting. No redeeming qualities.
ARMUS: So what do you think?
DATA: I think you should be destroyed.
ARMUS: A moral judgment from a machine.
Data isn't as morally "righteous" as you'd like to think he is.
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Last edited by BillJ; February 4 2012 at 10:43 PM.
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Old February 4 2012, 10:49 PM   #159
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

It seemed he could have been justified for using force in the situation, and probably wouldn't have been punished for it. It's possible though that there could have been a formal examining of the events if he would have said he fired. Maybe Data lied to wrap things up easier and avoid what he considered unnecessary questioning. We don't know that he would have lied if he would have actually killed Fajo.
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Old February 5 2012, 04:33 AM   #160
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

BillJ wrote: View Post
Data isn't as morally "righteous" as you'd like to think he is.
It can be argued that Data's actions towards Lore and Armus *are* righteous. Since those entities were inherently dangerous, had no redeeming qualities, and were extremely hostile, Data's eradication of them is justifiable.
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Old February 5 2012, 07:43 AM   #161
Tiberius
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

BillJ wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post

What?

How is it consistent?

We have a character up until this point who has had no emotions, no sign that he's ever had any, and has always been eager to explain things, perhaps in more detail than was absolutely necessary. And now, he decides that an EXECUTION is the only possible course of action, despite the fact that Fajo was unarmed, and then he refuses to say what was really happening?

In what universe is this consistent with the way Data had been written or portrayed up until that point?
Do you really want to do this?

In season one's Datalore, Data tosses his own 'brother' into a transporter beam that was focused on open space and had no problems doing it.

Then we'll look at this exchange from Skin of Evil, that you've consistently ignored...

Skin of Evil wrote:

DATA: Curious. (the phaser drops) You are capable of great sadism and cruelty. Interesting. No redeeming qualities.
ARMUS: So what do you think?
DATA: I think you should be destroyed.
ARMUS: A moral judgment from a machine.
Data isn't as morally "righteous" as you'd like to think he is.
Oh really?

Yes, let's take a look at them...

First off we have Lore, who is strong, intelligent, and most importantly, armed with a phaser with the intention of using it. At the point where Data throws Lore into the transporter, a clear risk is present. Lore is armed and is in the act of firing when he is beamed out.

Does this come close to what happened with Fajo? Let's see... Lore was armed, Fajo was not. Lore was in the middle of an act of violence, and Fajo (when Data moved to kill him) was not doing anything except making vague threats.

Completely different.

(Oh, and let';s not forget that Lore was beamed out intact. He wasn't killed, just marooned in space.)

And what about Armus? Well, Armus had demonstrated that he was pure evil, and he had demonstrated that he could easily kill. The fact that he killed Tasha without motivation proved that he would always be a serious threat. Data's remark that Armus should be destroyed is justifiable in this case. And again, does this compare to Fajo? Well, on one hand we have an entity that is pure evil and possesses the ability to kill with a thought. And then we have Fajo, who, from the way he acted when he killed Varia, had probably never killed before, and was without any means to carry out his vague threats.

Does it compare? No, doesn't come close. Oh, and bear in mind that Data doesn't actually make any attempt to kill Armus either.

So do you really want to argue that a small unarmed man who is making vague threats is comparable to a creature of pure evil that can kill with a thought, or an insanely strong and fast android with a fully functioning phaser that is in the act of firing at someone?
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Old February 5 2012, 01:42 PM   #162
Sho
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Re: "The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!

BillJ wrote: View Post
Sho wrote: View Post
Lt_Rowy wrote: View Post
I so agree with that....it was good that Fajo was busted for what he did. Because he murdered in cold blood with no remorse whatsoever and was prepared to do it again.
Kind of scared to read an opinion like that in a Trek forum ... I'd expect Trekkies to be against capital punishment, I guess.
I don't think fighting and killing to ensure your own freedom is the same as being pro-capital punishment.
I agree, and that's not what I said. I was reacting to a "Fajo got what he deserved / eye for an eye" statement, which is certainly a pro capital punishment stance, which I simply find surprising in a Trekkie (since Trek is pretty anti capital punishment, I'd say). For my opinion about Data's actions in the episode see earlier pages.
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