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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old January 9 2012, 03:19 PM   #46
horatio83
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Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

The Federation is not merely a democracy but also a place of law and order where kidnapping, theft and murder are considered to be crimes. And no, they are not human values but universal values in the Federation. If the Andorians would consider it as appropriate to sacrifice a bunch of aliens to live longer they would be the Andorian Empire and not members of the Federation.

About the Section 31 interpretation, they might have been involved but in this case they did a lousy job of gathering intelligence about the So'na and in the end the Federation council permitted Dougherty's mission. So all Section 31 could have done was misinformation, manipulating representatives and so on.
T think it is more sincere to admit that the Federation was perfectly willing to commit an atrocity until Picard interfered. That's an old pattern from TNG, nasty Admiral violates Federation principles, Picard idealistically fights for them. Doesn't become more black and white than such a simply morality tale.
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Old January 9 2012, 03:49 PM   #47
BillJ
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Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

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Old January 9 2012, 03:54 PM   #48
BillJ
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Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

What Insurrection lacked was any real danger to our crew. The story pits pretty white people against a severe looking, elderly Admiral and a group of unfortunate looking people. Make Picard choose between Geordi or Beverly laying in sick bay dying and only extracted meta-phasics can save them, then you'd have a far more interesting movie and a real moral conundrum for Picard.

As stands the only thing driving Picard's actions is the desire to get in Anij's bloomers.

EDIT:

Honestly, I don't blame Michael Piller for the train wreck that was Star Trek: Insurrection. The blame lays squarely at the feet of Rick Berman, Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner who watered down the concept to the inoffensive mush we saw on screen.

The original concept revolved around the mineral Serium Krellide, much like dilithium with warp speed, krellide was the mineral that made Federation medical technology possible. Casualties during the Dominion War had dwindled the supply of the valuable asset. Meaning that many were no longer receiving treatments... until the world that was harboring the Ba'ku was found. Mining the krellide released poisonous gas into the atmosphere making said world inhospitable to humanoid life for many decades.

In Piller's original treatment, a member of the Enterprise crew is seriously injured and badly in need of treatments only the krellide can provide...

I could see a scene playing out something like this:

INT: SICKBAY


Geordi lies unconscious on a bio-bed, burned badly from the
plasma explosion in Engineering. In comes Picard and Admiral
Dougherty.

Picard
(clearly worried)
How is he Beverly?

Crusher
Not well. He's suffered burns over
ninety-five percent of his body. Several
of his major organs are damaged.

Picard
Will he survive?

Crusher
If I get him into surgery now, I place his
chances at fifty-fifty.

Daugherty
Belay that, Doctor...

Daugherty motions for Picard to join him in a secluded
area of sickbay.



Daugherty
I cannot sanction the treatment of an officer
with such serious injuries.

Picard
I do not understand...

Daugherty
Jean-Luc, the war with the Dominion goes badly.
Our krellide reserves are at an all time low, we
have thousands of injured men across the quadrant
who we simply cannot afford to treat. Their injuries
so severe that we won't waste valuable resources
that can be used to treat men and women
with better chances of survival.

Picard
He's a damn fine officer.

Daugherty
So are the men and women all across the quadrant
who have sacrificed themselves. I'll allow Doctor
Crusher to do all that she can to make your
engineer comfortable but I will not authorize use
of krellide to save him with such poor odds of
survival.

Daugherty begins to exit.

Daugherty
I'm sorry, Jean-Luc.

The center tags don't work very well so I deleted them... but you get the picture.
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Last edited by BillJ; January 9 2012 at 05:27 PM.
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Old January 9 2012, 07:31 PM   #49
Rķu rķu, chķu
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Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

horatio83 wrote: View Post
the Federation council permitted Dougherty's mission.
So he says. I see no reason to believe him.
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Old January 9 2012, 07:37 PM   #50
BillJ
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Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
the Federation council permitted Dougherty's mission.
So he says. I see no reason to believe him.
But there's nothing in the film that contradicts his statement as well...

Insurrection wrote:
Now! If the Enterprise gets through with news about their brave Captain's valiant struggle on behalf of the defenceless Ba'ku, your Federation politicians will waver, your Federation opinion polls will open a public debate, your Federation allies will want their say. ...Need I go on?
This dialogue would seem to suggest that the Federation government knew what was going on.
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Old January 9 2012, 07:47 PM   #51
Rķu rķu, chķu
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Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

^ Ru'afo may have assumed all that, but what proof did *he* have? He probably believed it when Dougherty said that the Federation Council authorized the operation. But there is no proof that they actually did.
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Old January 9 2012, 07:56 PM   #52
BillJ
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Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Ru'afo may have assumed all that, but what proof did *he* have? He probably believed it when Dougherty said that the Federation Council authorized the operation. But there is no proof that they actually did.
There's Riker's line about the Federation Council doing a top level review. Like it or not, there's nothing in the film that points to Dougherty being dishonest about where the orders come from. Whether he was actually competent enough to carry out those orders is another question entirely.
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Old January 9 2012, 10:15 PM   #53
horatio83
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Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

BillJ wrote: View Post
What Insurrection lacked was any real danger to our crew. The story pits pretty white people against a severe looking, elderly Admiral and a group of unfortunate looking people. Make Picard choose between Geordi or Beverly laying in sick bay dying and only extracted meta-phasics can save them, then you'd have a far more interesting movie and a real moral conundrum for Picard.
There has never been a Trek movie with a real moral conundrum, it has always been good guys against bad guys.

As stands the only thing driving Picard's actions is the desire to get in Anij's bloomers.
Nonsense, not even Kirk on his most horny day would quit Starfleet because he wants to get laid. Picard fights against the bad guys like any movie hero.
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Old January 9 2012, 10:18 PM   #54
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Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

horatio83 wrote: View Post

Nonsense, not even Kirk on his most horny day would quit Starfleet because he wants to get laid.
Problem is that Picard is being affected by the radiation. So all bets are off as to his behavior in this situation.
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Old January 9 2012, 10:22 PM   #55
horatio83
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Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

Not really. Sure, he feels younger and he falls in love with Anij and nobody would deny that playing the hero for her was also a motivation for him. But it wasn't his main motivation.
This is not Homer where people do all kind of crazy things because of a woman, this is Trek.
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Old January 9 2012, 10:25 PM   #56
BillJ
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Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Not really. Sure, he feels younger and he falls in love with Anij and nobody would deny that playing the hero for her was also a motivation for him. But it wasn't his main motivation.
This is not Homer where people do all kind of crazy things because of a woman, this is Trek.
We will have to leave it at 'agree to disagree' on Picard's motivations.
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Old January 9 2012, 10:27 PM   #57
sonak
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Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

I'm not going to be sucked into another thread about INS, madness lies down that path. It's not a particularly good movie even apart from the horrible "dilemma."


But to answer the thread, yes, Picard is a hypocrite. Apart from a few technicalities, the situations are very similar, and in fact, there's a greater justification for removing the Baku than the Federation colonists.

I think they were just hoping Trek fans had forgotten or hadn't seen "journey's end."
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Old January 9 2012, 10:31 PM   #58
horatio83
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Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

Citizenship is not a "technicality" and violating people is not a technicality either, it is a crime. I hope none of you ever makes the experience of a being abducted by a foreign government. Happened pretty often during the last decade.
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Old January 9 2012, 10:40 PM   #59
sonak
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Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Citizenship is not a "technicality" and violating people is not a technicality either, it is a crime. I hope none of you ever makes the experience of a being abducted by a foreign government. Happened pretty often during the last decade.

The situations you're likely referring to are in no way comparable.
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Old January 9 2012, 11:55 PM   #60
BillJ
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Re: Is Picard a hypocrite?

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Citizenship is not a "technicality" and violating people is not a technicality either, it is a crime. I hope none of you ever makes the experience of a being abducted by a foreign government. Happened pretty often during the last decade.
If your great granny lives in the U.S. and leaves you a home, your still gonna be bound by the laws of the U.S. when dealing with that property even though you're not a citizen. And a local government can still take that property via eminent domain, even though you're not a citizen.

The Ba'ku are not Federation citizens but are sitting on a planet in Federation territory. Not even Picard cared to argue the semantics of that point.

You can argue the morality of the move til you're blue in the face, but I'm pretty sure that property law is going to come down on the side of Dougherty and Company.
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Last edited by BillJ; January 10 2012 at 12:31 AM.
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