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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old January 10 2012, 08:54 PM   #1
BennyRussel
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Ezri on the Bridge - Huh?

Does anyone have an explanation as to why Ezri Dax, who was a station counselor and a junior officer with (presumably) little combat or bridge-related skills had a job on the bridge of the Defiant during battles?

Of course I understand the practical answer which is that Nicole deBoer was a member of the cast and they had to put her somewhere.

Even so, it seems to me an experienced tactical, science or command officer would have been better-placed at that station. I know that the previous Dax fit that description but Ezri did not.

The DS9 writers had no trouble finding things for Dr. Bashir to do back at the station at times when he was not on the Defiant. I am not sure why they could not do the same with Ezri.

Even if she was on the ship, she could have been in sickbay helping with the wounded or something similar
Plus Ezri was a little bit of a flake due to her being thrust into her host role - although she had become more confident as the season went on.

This makes even less sense than having Deanna Troi sitting next to Picard on the Enterprise bridge - since she was an empath and those abilities may have conceivably aided the Captain in his duties. Also, the Enterprise was not a war ship.
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Old January 10 2012, 09:05 PM   #2
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Re: Ezri on the Bridge - Huh?

while she was a flake, the Dax symbiote was a trusted friend and adviser of captain sisko's, added to that he knows that while she's still adjusting to the new body, she does have access to a few hundred years of experience and knowledge, that alone gives her more 'space' experience than anyone else on the defiant...

I have no problem with her being on the bridge... she's trusted and earned her place there as the 'Dax' symbiote several lifetimes over, just because she's in a new body and learning things again, doesn't detract from the skills and experience she has previously... as shown by her quick rise through the ranks to take Captain's position 2381, only 6 years after being a junior officer when she first got the Dax symbiote in 2375...

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Old January 10 2012, 09:13 PM   #3
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Re: Ezri on the Bridge - Huh?

oh, here's here dates and ranks / positions just to show how quickly she flew up the ranks...

USS Destiny - ensign / assistant counselor - until 2375
Deep Space 9 - lieutenant junior grade / counselor - 2375-2376
USS Defiant - lieutenant / first officer - from 2376
USS Aventine - lieutenant commander / second officer - until 2381
USS Aventine - captain - from 2381

Anyone that can go from Ensign / Assistant Councillor in under 6 years definitely deserves the kudos she gets... noteworthy she made it from Ensign to First Officer in about a year... so she's obviously got enough experience and knowledge to back up the claim to be on any bridge...

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Old January 10 2012, 09:17 PM   #4
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Re: Ezri on the Bridge - Huh?

Ezri was just communications on the Defiant if I recall.
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Old January 10 2012, 09:20 PM   #5
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Re: Ezri on the Bridge - Huh?

think she got promoted to first officer after the war, when she stayed on DS9 when most of them left at the end of the series...

have to check...

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Old January 10 2012, 09:23 PM   #6
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Re: Ezri on the Bridge - Huh?

^ In the novels, yes. Avatar probably.
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Old January 10 2012, 09:24 PM   #7
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Re: Ezri on the Bridge - Huh?

got it...

Ezri was given the position of first officer aboard the USS Defiant for its three-month exploratory mission of the Gamma Quadrant by the mission's commander, Elias Vaughn in the books set after "What you leave behind."

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/DS9_relaunch

M

:EDIT:

Mission Gamma series of books to be precise

M

Last edited by Methos; January 10 2012 at 09:45 PM.
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Old January 10 2012, 09:37 PM   #8
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Re: Ezri on the Bridge - Huh?

What? It was okay that Troi was on the bridge because of her powers but not Dax?

She has years of experience! As shown in "The Siege of Ar.." her past talents came in handy. She makes more sense as Sisko's adviser too.
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Old January 10 2012, 10:49 PM   #9
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Re: Ezri on the Bridge - Huh?

Methos wrote: View Post
got it...

Ezri was given the position of first officer aboard the USS Defiant for its three-month exploratory mission of the Gamma Quadrant by the mission's commander, Elias Vaughn in the books set after "What you leave behind."

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/DS9_relaunch

M

:EDIT:

Mission Gamma series of books to be precise

M
Though technically, that would be non-canon, as well as taking place after the series ended, so it doesn't really have much impact on the OP's question of why she was on the bridge so much during the show.
Damask wrote: View Post
What? It was okay that Troi was on the bridge because of her powers but not Dax?
Troi wasn't just on the bridge "because of her powers." She was there to advise the captain on various situations as they unfold. It's her job. Now, TNG as a show didn't always portray that properly (actually... "didn't often" might be more accurate ), but that was the reason she was on the bridge.

Ezri was said to be a counselor, but no one ever said she was supposed to be an adviser to the captain or anything. Thus, her presence on the bridge isn't immediately justified by her stated role.

That said, it's reasonable to infer that with the war inflicting so many losses on Starfleet, some officers are just asked to fill a position/role as long as they show they are capable of it, even if it's not their normal job. That, and "who does what from where" was one of DS9's problems from day one. Jobs are too fluid and ill-defined, it's hard to tell what stations and personnel (in Ops and on the bridge of the Defiant) are responsible for what, etc. This problem cropped up from time to time on TNG, but on DS9 it was practically a staple of the show.
She has years of experience! As shown in "The Siege of Ar.." her past talents came in handy. She makes more sense as Sisko's adviser too.
To some degree, yes... but "The Siege" was a double-edged sword. Her assistance with the communications array and the Houdinis proves invaluable, but on the flipside, she doesn't hold up all that well in combat. Which just goes to show that the skills and experience of a symbiont aren't just completely available at full effectiveness at a moment's notice, especially in the case of someone like Ezri, who wasn't properly prepared to be joined. The capabilities and tendencies of the host still play a significant role in determining how well the joined individual will do at a given task.
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Old January 10 2012, 11:01 PM   #10
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Re: Ezri on the Bridge - Huh?

Thanks for the comments everyone.

The question in my original post was related to the TV series, I cannot form an opinion based upon novels that were written after the show was over that I did not read.

Damask wrote: View Post
What? It was okay that Troi was on the bridge because of her powers but not Dax?
I did not say it was "okay" that Troi was on the bridge - I said it made a little more sense to me because Troi had empathic abilities and the Enterprise was not a war ship. I don't really think either one of them belonged on the bridge in a battle scenario.

I understand comments regarding her years of experience. But I offer a rebuttal. Although she shared the memories and acquired some of the skills of her previous hosts, it does not mean she automatically becomes an expert at any of their fields. I don't know if the memories and experiences are worth that much on a war ship during the heat of battle without the accompanying starfleet training and experience that a Sr. bridge officer would normally get.

Thanks again gang. I really enjoy the forum.
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Old January 10 2012, 11:03 PM   #11
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Re: Ezri on the Bridge - Huh?

Why would Jadzia Dax be perfectly useful, even often in command on the bridge of the Defiant, but Ezri Dax be unwelcome? Considering that Ezri's original personality only makes up about 1/9th the new Dax, but she has all the knowledge and many of the abilities of the previous Dax.

I understand maybe giving Ezri a trial period to prove herself, but to slam the airlock in her face when she is perfectly qualified to be on the Defiant? That makes zero sense.

Bear in mind, on a superficial level, Jadzia was LT of the Science division. Ezri was a LT jg of the Science division. Other than two letters, how is Ezri not qualified?
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Old January 10 2012, 11:05 PM   #12
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Re: Ezri on the Bridge - Huh?

Speaking admittedly immodestly, I have become something of an expert on Ezri Dax. Thus...I'd consider this in my league.

Okay...

BennyRussel wrote: View Post
Does anyone have an explanation as to why Ezri Dax, who was a station counselor and a junior officer with (presumably) little combat or bridge-related skills had a job on the bridge of the Defiant during battles?
Let me interrupt you there, if I may. The key word is "presumably". She has the experience--and therefore, skills--of eight lifetimes. And as stated, she's basically the communications officer on the Defiant.

Moving right along...

Of course I understand the practical answer which is that Nicole deBoer was a member of the cast and they had to put her somewhere.

Even so, it seems to me an experienced tactical, science or command officer would have been better-placed at that station. I know that the previous Dax fit that description but Ezri did not.

The DS9 writers had no trouble finding things for Dr. Bashir to do back at the station at times when he was not on the Defiant. I am not sure why they could not do the same with Ezri.

Even if she was on the ship, she could have been in sickbay helping with the wounded or something similar
Plus Ezri was a little bit of a flake due to her being thrust into her host role - although she had become more confident as the season went on.

This makes even less sense than having Deanna Troi sitting next to Picard on the Enterprise bridge - since she was an empath and those abilities may have conceivably aided the Captain in his duties. Also, the Enterprise was not a war ship.
Well, I think the term "flake" is a bit unfair--to put it mildly. She quickly gained a great deal of confidence in herself by the end of "Afterimage". In that same ep, she was quite brilliant in her manipulating Garak to break down and admit his guilt.

On the subject of a counselor on the bridge--in times where the counselor is treating someone, it makes a great deal of sense that said counselor would be on the bridge/Ops.

After all, the bridge/Ops crew are the central hub of the crew. They have the most responsibilities--with the possible exceptions of the chief engineer and doctor. As such, it is absolutely essential that they are in top psychological shape. Therefore, it is therefore ideal that someone be present at all times to observe the mental states of the bridge/Ops crew.

As Ezri and Deanna are the chief counselors in their respective "jurisdictions", as it were...it is logical that they would be on the bridge, or Ops, or what have you.
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Old January 11 2012, 01:49 AM   #13
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Re: Ezri on the Bridge - Huh?

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Let me interrupt you there, if I may. The key word is "presumably". She has the experience--and therefore, skills--of eight lifetimes. And as stated, she's basically the communications officer on the Defiant.
She was seen doing somce comms work, which actually makes sense - Starfleet officer training is known to be well-rounded, so if she has enough expertise to function competently in that role, she might be assigned to it because of the general crew attrition issues caused by the war.

But, as I mentioned in my previous post, I don't think this sentence
She has the experience--and therefore, skills--of eight lifetimes.
is accurate if taken at face value. She cannot call upon them fully, at will. I don't think ANY joined Trill can, actually, not to the full extent that a person with actual training and experience could.

Let me see if I can illustrate how I view the passage of skills from one host to the next. Curzon Dax was a hell of a diplomat. This is because Curzon trained and gained experience as a diplomat; becoming the next Dax host was irrelevant to that. Experience of prior hosts as diplomats/ambassadors/etc certainly would help, and such experience would probably allow him to learn the trade more quickly, but he still had to devote time in his life to training and honing his skills to be effective in his chosen field.

Curzon's experience became part of the Dax symbiont's sumtotal experience, yes, but it doesn't just transfer cleanly and fully, like a file download. Jadzia would have some skills on that area due to the symbiont, but would she be as good a diplomat as, say, a Human who had undergone the same training and honing of skills in that field as Curzon had? No. Because Jadzia Dax never pursued diplomacy, never honed the skill herself.

Ezri gains even less in terms of direct skill transfer than most joined Trill would, given how unprepared she was. It certainly would help her, but simply having a skilled pilot as a prior host doesn't mean she'd be as skilled as a dedicated pilot, only that she would be more skilled than your average non-pilot would be (and if she wanted to BECOME a skilled pilot, she could no doubt pick it up relatively quickly due to the symbiont, but she'd still have to put in the work and time to hone her skills before being called "good" in the context of dedicated pilots). In the same vein, having Jadzia as a prior host doesn't make her a badass in melee combat (as we saw; she didn't fare well at all when forced to engage in it).

If a joined Trill actually gained - in full, to the same level of development as the previous host, and able to be called on 100% at will - ALL the skills of ALL of their hosts, then joined Trill with more than two or three previous lives would be far and away the most skilled officers in Starfleet. Jadzia would completely blow everyone else out of the water, by a WIDE margin, in every area that Starfleet trains in. This is not shown to be the case.
Well, I think the term "flake" is a bit unfair.
I wanted to touch on this myself, but I forgot: it's more than "a bit unfair", it's completely inaccurate. She was never a "flake" to begin with. A flake is someone who is unreliable, someone who cannot be counted on to follow through on what they say because they end up blowing it off or not even trying. Ezri had legitimate troubles with some aspects of doing her job because of having a symbiont thrust upon her suddenly; this isn't the same as "being a flake."
On the subject of a counselor on the bridge--in times where the counselor is treating someone, it makes a great deal of sense that said counselor would be on the bridge/Ops.
Did we ever see this, though? With Ezri, I mean. Perhaps I am just forgetting something.
After all, the bridge/Ops crew are the central hub of the crew. They have the most responsibilities--with the possible exceptions of the chief engineer and doctor. As such, it is absolutely essential that they are in top psychological shape. Therefore, it is therefore ideal that someone be present at all times to observe the mental states of the bridge/Ops crew.
But she'd simply be called to the bridge when/if needed, like is often the case with the doctor. The bridge is a place of practical, ship-running work; you generally don't have people standing around without a very good reason. If Ezri is there because she is waiting for someone to need some kind of psychological help... that's silly if you ask me. If she is there because they have found an actual job for her to do, then that's fine, but in that case, she would have to abandon said job in order to devote her attention to suddenly helping someone in need, and in that case, could only do so if someone else could jump in and take over whatever she had been doing (say, communications).

Now, as I said, it's not entirely unreasonable to assume that Starfleet's manpower issues would necessitate things like "Well, she's the counselor, but she's pretty good with communications, so give her that job since we're short on experienced personnel at multiple positions anyway." But I do think that's the case: in other circumstances, she might not be on the bridge at all under normal operating conditions (especially on a ship like the Defiant). And that's only the in-universe reason anyway: out of universe, I think it's exactly right that it was simply a matter of wanting the lead characters to have a presence within the "main set" of the ship, thus Ezri (and Bashir, at times) are on the bridge doing things, whether or not it makes sense internally (and again, it's part of a larger problem with DS9, that roles and jobs were really poorly defined).
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Old January 11 2012, 02:06 AM   #14
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Re: Ezri on the Bridge - Huh?

There is nothing in the series to indicate that Esri was not trained as a command officer. Was we discover during TNG, Science/Medical personnel do have the option of receiving command training. Its a good bet that during war time, Starfleet might insist that said personnel be required to gain that training since in an emergency they might need everyone to fit in a clearly defined command structure.
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Old January 11 2012, 02:12 AM   #15
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Re: Ezri on the Bridge - Huh?

Saito S wrote: View Post
But, as I mentioned in my previous post, I don't think this sentence
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She has the experience--and therefore, skills--of eight lifetimes.
is accurate if taken at face value. She cannot call upon them fully, at will. I don't think ANY joined Trill can, actually, not to the full extent that a person with actual training and experience could.

Let me see if I can illustrate how I view the passage of skills from one host to the next. Curzon Dax was a hell of a diplomat. This is because Curzon trained and gained experience as a diplomat; becoming the next Dax host was irrelevant to that. Experience of prior hosts as diplomats/ambassadors/etc certainly would help, and such experience would probably allow him to learn the trade more quickly, but he still had to devote time in his life to training and honing his skills to be effective in his chosen field.

Curzon's experience became part of the Dax symbiont's sumtotal experience, yes, but it doesn't just transfer cleanly and fully, like a file download. Jadzia would have some skills on that area due to the symbiont, but would she be as good a diplomat as, say, a Human who had undergone the same training and honing of skills in that field as Curzon had? No. Because Jadzia Dax never pursued diplomacy, never honed the skill herself.

Ezri gains even less in terms of direct skill transfer than most joined Trill would, given how unprepared she was. It certainly would help her, but simply having a skilled pilot as a prior host doesn't mean she'd be as skilled as a dedicated pilot, only that she would be more skilled than your average non-pilot would be (and if she wanted to BECOME a skilled pilot, she could no doubt pick it up relatively quickly due to the symbiont, but she'd still have to put in the work and time to hone her skills before being called "good" in the context of dedicated pilots).
Oh, I doubt her lack of preparation negates the skills she'd gain from the joining. It made it difficult for her to adjust, certainly...but her gaining of confidence would surely allow her to gain full access to the skills the symbiont provides.
In the same vein, having Jadzia as a prior host doesn't make her a badass in melee combat (as we saw; she didn't fare well at all when forced to engage in it).
I'd argue that that was more due to her build than anything else. Ezri's more petite than Jadzia--less physically strong.

If a joined Trill actually gained - in full, to the same level of development as the previous host, and able to be called on 100% at will - ALL the skills of ALL of their hosts, then joined Trill with more than two or three previous lives would be far and away the most skilled officers in Starfleet. Jadzia would completely blow everyone else out of the water, by a WIDE margin, in every area that Starfleet trains in. This is not shown to be the case.
Fair enough.


I wanted to touch on this myself, but I forgot: it's more than "a bit unfair", it's completely inaccurate. She was never a "flake" to begin with. A flake is someone who is unreliable, someone who cannot be counted on to follow through on what they say because they end up blowing it off or not even trying. Ezri had legitimate troubles with some aspects of doing her job because of having a symbiont thrust upon her suddenly; this isn't the same as "being a flake."
Amen. Thank you.

On the subject of a counselor on the bridge--in times where the counselor is treating someone, it makes a great deal of sense that said counselor would be on the bridge/Ops.
Did we ever see this, though? With Ezri, I mean. Perhaps I am just forgetting something.
I'm saying that's the reason she would be there. Just because we haven't seen it happen doesn't mean there wasn't a reason to prepare for it.

After all, the bridge/Ops crew are the central hub of the crew. They have the most responsibilities--with the possible exceptions of the chief engineer and doctor. As such, it is absolutely essential that they are in top psychological shape. Therefore, it is therefore ideal that someone be present at all times to observe the mental states of the bridge/Ops crew.
But she'd simply be called to the bridge when/if needed, like is often the case with the doctor. The bridge is a place of practical, ship-running work; you generally don't have people standing around without a very good reason. If Ezri is there because she is waiting for someone to need some kind of psychological help... that's silly if you ask me. If she is there because they have found an actual job for her to do, then that's fine, but in that case, she would have to abandon said job in order to devote her attention to suddenly helping someone in need, and in that case, could only do so if someone else could jump in and take over whatever she had been doing (say, communications).
Except, as Bones had often experienced (particularly in "The Corbomite Maneuver" (TOS)), sometimes you have to be there, to make the judgment yourself as to whether one needs help--it's not like they'd admit it outright. Deanna Troi knew this--and I recall a few times when she walked up to Picard, and--quietly, out of respect for his privacy--asked if she could discuss a problem she saw regarding his emotional state.

Furthermore, calling Ezri up--having her come all the way up to Ops--would imply an emergency, requiring her to go out of her way. Were she already up there, she'd be free to use her own judgment AND could prevent problems before they become serious.
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