RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,129
Posts: 5,401,427
Members: 24,745
Currently online: 674
Newest member: lafzsurat

TrekToday headlines

September-October Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Lee Passes
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Retro Watches
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 9 2013, 09:33 PM   #2161
RAMA
Vice Admiral
 
RAMA's Avatar
 
Location: NJ, USA
Re: sf/f TV development news - 2013

I just have to shake my head at all the people claiming there is no scifi on tv and that it's dying...to which I am endlessly pointing out examples. In fact, webseries, TV and movies have a tremendous amount of genuine scifi coming out in the next 2 years.
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Carl Sagan
RAMA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 9 2013, 10:09 PM   #2162
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: sf/f TV development news - 2013

^A lot of people assume that science fiction needs to involve space. Maybe that's what they really mean, that there aren't many space-based shows anymore.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 9 2013, 10:29 PM   #2163
JD
Admiral
 
JD's Avatar
 
Location: Arizona, USA
Re: sf/f TV development news - 2013

Defiance is on the top of my list for most anticipated new shows. Some of the newer trailers have started to put a little more emphasis on the story over the action. If you watch some of the longer trailers they do show more of the story and characters.
__________________
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites
JD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 9 2013, 10:56 PM   #2164
stj
Rear Admiral
 
stj's Avatar
 
Location: the real world
Re: sf/f TV development news - 2013

• ARE THE CHARACTERS LIKABLE OR RELATABLE?
There is exactly one TV-viewing demographic that still cares about this: development executives laboring under the delusion that they’ll eventually find the next Cheers or Friends (both of which, by the way, were full of characters who often behaved terribly). You know who doesn’t care about likability? People who watch Game of Thrones, or Breaking Bad, or Mad Men, or Archer. This is usually the point at which networks assert that cable shows don’t have to reach as large an audience. But that doesn’t wash anymore, not when any number of network series are pulling lower ratings than Duck Dynasty and Sons of Anarchy.

...

• WILL THE AUDIENCE GET IT?
Most cable series proceed from the assumption that their viewers are looking for a good show. Most network series proceed from the assumption that their viewers are stupid and inattentive. That’s why the second episodes of network dramas are usually so boring that viewers flee — they’re essentially designed to reiterate and re-explain everything that unfolded in episode 1.

...

• IS THE SHOW LIKE SOMETHING ELSE THAT’S ON THE AIR?
This is actually not a bad question; the problem is the answer, which the networks want to be “Yes” when they, and we, should always be rooting for “No.” Only in network TV is past failure considered a sure sign of future success.

...

I get the counterargument: Safety sells. Familiarity works. Formula rules. Otherwise, the No. 1 show on TV wouldn’t be the 95th season of NCIS, and the reality shows we were enthusiastically watching in 2000 wouldn’t be the same ones that half of us are halfheartedly half-watching now. Still, something is amiss: In the recently concluded February sweeps, NBC finished fifth. And there are only four big English-language networks. Which means that maybe the most relevant question programmers should be asking when they consider this season’s pilots is “What do we have to lose?”
Mark Harris is (was?) a senior editor at Entertainment Weekly, which makes him an industry flack, even if his boy friend is Tony Kushner. His first question is completely misconceived, because the vast majority of supposedly good shows are every bit as committed to likable and relatable characters. It's just that cable's version of likable is sexy, which is a tougher to broadcast. Cable's version of relatable is bad ass, which many relate to because they can't imagine anything else they would want to be.

The second question is disingenuous. Broadcast really asks "Will the advertisers get it?" Or the FCC. This country's commitment to free speech depends largely upon the widespread tacit agreement not to exercise it in any major venue.

The last questioni is also disingenuous. Marris is a professional, so he knows very well that the broadcast networks have always offered some innovative programming, particularly when they were desperate enough that even smaller audiences would have been acceptable. There's a good case they have been more open to genuinely different formats than most cable offerings. I offer Cop Rock as the prima facie example.

Harris' examples (NBC's My Own Worst Enemy, Awake and Do No Harm) are complete BS. First, there are in fact very significant differences which shouldn't have been overlooked. Second, and more importantly, Do No Harm may not have been any good artistically. But it doesn't matter, because no one bothered to find out. Not getting an audience at all simply is not the same thing as being rejected as bad entertainment. The assumption is that popularity is a sign of artistic merit, and obscurity is the devil's mark of failure. This is mental bankruptcky.
__________________
The people of this country need regime change here, not abroad.
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 9 2013, 11:03 PM   #2165
Temis the Vorta
Fleet Admiral
 
Temis the Vorta's Avatar
 
Location: Tatoinne
Re: sf/f TV development news - 2013

Christopher wrote: View Post
^A lot of people assume that science fiction needs to involve space. Maybe that's what they really mean, that there aren't many space-based shows anymore.
I use "sci fi" pretty broadly to mean stuff that is near future semi-sci fi like Person of Interest and even fantasy tinged stuff but when something has a space element, I pay more attention because of the rarity.

Defined broadly, sci fi is doing great because shows like Revolution, Once Upon a Time and Grimm manage to latch onto loyal audiences, which is nothing to sneeze at in the broadcast world now. We'll get a crop of new sci fi/fantasy shows on broadcast next season but nothing too earthshaking. I could go for a couple shows that break more from the pack.
Temis the Vorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10 2013, 10:00 AM   #2166
RJDiogenes
Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion
 
RJDiogenes's Avatar
 
Location: RJDiogenes of Boston
Re: sf/f TV development news - 2013

stj wrote: View Post
• ARE THE CHARACTERS LIKABLE OR RELATABLE?
There is exactly one TV-viewing demographic that still cares about this: development executives laboring under the delusion that they’ll eventually find the next Cheers or Friends (both of which, by the way, were full of characters who often behaved terribly). You know who doesn’t care about likability? People who watch Game of Thrones, or Breaking Bad, or Mad Men, or Archer. This is usually the point at which networks assert that cable shows don’t have to reach as large an audience. But that doesn’t wash anymore, not when any number of network series are pulling lower ratings than Duck Dynasty and Sons of Anarchy.

...

• WILL THE AUDIENCE GET IT?
Most cable series proceed from the assumption that their viewers are looking for a good show. Most network series proceed from the assumption that their viewers are stupid and inattentive. That’s why the second episodes of network dramas are usually so boring that viewers flee — they’re essentially designed to reiterate and re-explain everything that unfolded in episode 1.

...

• IS THE SHOW LIKE SOMETHING ELSE THAT’S ON THE AIR?
This is actually not a bad question; the problem is the answer, which the networks want to be “Yes” when they, and we, should always be rooting for “No.” Only in network TV is past failure considered a sure sign of future success.

...

I get the counterargument: Safety sells. Familiarity works. Formula rules. Otherwise, the No. 1 show on TV wouldn’t be the 95th season of NCIS, and the reality shows we were enthusiastically watching in 2000 wouldn’t be the same ones that half of us are halfheartedly half-watching now. Still, something is amiss: In the recently concluded February sweeps, NBC finished fifth. And there are only four big English-language networks. Which means that maybe the most relevant question programmers should be asking when they consider this season’s pilots is “What do we have to lose?”
Mark Harris is (was?) a senior editor at Entertainment Weekly, which makes him an industry flack, even if his boy friend is Tony Kushner. His first question is completely misconceived, because the vast majority of supposedly good shows are every bit as committed to likable and relatable characters. It's just that cable's version of likable is sexy, which is a tougher to broadcast. Cable's version of relatable is bad ass, which many relate to because they can't imagine anything else they would want to be.

The second question is disingenuous. Broadcast really asks "Will the advertisers get it?" Or the FCC. This country's commitment to free speech depends largely upon the widespread tacit agreement not to exercise it in any major venue.

The last questioni is also disingenuous. Marris is a professional, so he knows very well that the broadcast networks have always offered some innovative programming, particularly when they were desperate enough that even smaller audiences would have been acceptable. There's a good case they have been more open to genuinely different formats than most cable offerings. I offer Cop Rock as the prima facie example.

Harris' examples (NBC's My Own Worst Enemy, Awake and Do No Harm) are complete BS. First, there are in fact very significant differences which shouldn't have been overlooked. Second, and more importantly, Do No Harm may not have been any good artistically. But it doesn't matter, because no one bothered to find out. Not getting an audience at all simply is not the same thing as being rejected as bad entertainment. The assumption is that popularity is a sign of artistic merit, and obscurity is the devil's mark of failure. This is mental bankruptcky.
Agreed completely.
__________________
Please stop by my Gallery and YouTube Page for a visit. And read Trunkards!
RJDiogenes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11 2013, 12:36 AM   #2167
Temis the Vorta
Fleet Admiral
 
Temis the Vorta's Avatar
 
Location: Tatoinne
Re: sf/f TV development news - 2013

Who said anything about artistic merit? The article is about broadcast TV as a business, which is failing because the audience is abandoning it, not because it's un-artistic but because it's boring. Broadcast is pretty weak tea when everyone can switch over to The Walking Dead and compare for themselves.

Don't take my word for it, wait next season and watch a whole new crop of ratings catastrophes occur. The pilot premises this season sound just like the crop from last year (more boring, even), which are failing all over the place, and those were the ones that survived the process to go to series.

I keep wondering how long it will take the industry to realize that they can't keep doing the same shit over and over, and expecting different results.

Do you see anything interesting here?

I can pick out a few that pique my interest: S.H.I.E.L.D., The Sixth Gun, Abrams' robot cop series...Hatfields & McCoys for the cast, maybe...that's about it. Even fewer than last year, and most of the ones I liked never went to series.

Last edited by Temis the Vorta; March 11 2013 at 12:47 AM. Reason: cat stepped on keyboard, messed shit up
Temis the Vorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11 2013, 09:15 AM   #2168
RJDiogenes
Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion
 
RJDiogenes's Avatar
 
Location: RJDiogenes of Boston
Re: sf/f TV development news - 2013

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
Who said anything about artistic merit?
That about sums it all up right there.
__________________
Please stop by my Gallery and YouTube Page for a visit. And read Trunkards!
RJDiogenes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11 2013, 01:40 PM   #2169
stj
Rear Admiral
 
stj's Avatar
 
Location: the real world
Re: sf/f TV development news - 2013

Actually, Harris was steadily confusing popularity with artistic merit. His example of the Jekyll-imitation, Do No Harm, shows this. He talked about NBC's disaster as his prime example of failure of imagination (i.e., a key aspect of artistic merit.) But the thing about Do No Harm is that nobody bothered to watch at all. They have no valid opinion about whether Do No Harm is good entertainment, or whether it was too disemboweld for US television. Do No Harm is a failure of marketing. (I suppose the business and marketing acolytes would define it as a dual failure in marketing for the show and branding for NBC.) Harris attributed it to unoriginality, as if anyone really knows whether the show was original for US networks or not.

Yes, everything Harris said was couched in terms referring to artistic merit, when he was only talking about popularity and financial success. And still doing a piss poor job of doing that.
__________________
The people of this country need regime change here, not abroad.
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11 2013, 08:06 PM   #2170
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: sf/f TV development news - 2013

I've always thought that there was vocabulary problem at work here, in that we tend to use the same words--bomb, flop, disaster--to describe both commercial and artistic failures, which are very different concepts. With the result that we often end up talking past each other.

Granted, there are plenty of shows that fail on both levels, and there may even be a causal link sometimes, but they aren't the same thing --and it can get confusing when we throw the terms around interchangeably.

Just because something bombed doesn't mean it sucked, and vise versa.

(There's also the understandable human tendency to conflate our individual opinions with the general audiences', as when we assume that because we and our like-minded friends all disliked something, it must have bombed at the box office, right?)
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 11 2013, 09:48 PM   #2171
Enterprise is Great
Rear Admiral
 
Enterprise is Great's Avatar
 
Re: sf/f TV development news - 2013

Josh Lucas & Lynn Collins To Topline A&E Pilot ‘Occult’

After a lengthy casting process, Josh Lucas and Lynn Collins have been set as the leads of A&E‘s drama pilot Occult, produced by Transformers helmer Michael Bay and written by veteran genre writer, The X-Files alum James Wong. With Lucas and Collins on board, the project, originally picked up in September as cast-contingent, is going into production. Occult, which draws parallels to X-Files and Fringe, centers on Dolan (Lucas), an FBI agent who returns from administrative leave after going off the deep end while investigating his wife’s disappearance. Eager to be back on the job, he is paired with Noa Blair (Collins), an agent with her own complicated backstory who specializes in the occult. Together, they will solve cases for the newly formed occult crimes task force.
Minka Kelly To Co-Star In Fox’s J.H. Wyman/J.J. Abrams Pilot

Friday Night Lights alumna Minka Kelly is set to co-star in Fox‘s untitled Bad Robot/J.H. Wyman drama pilot (formerly Inhuman). Kelly will play Valerie Stahl, a uniformed cop with a strong moral compass who believes the best of people.
Meghan Ory To Star In CBS’ ‘Intelligence’

Ory will play Riley O’Neil, an ex Secret Service taking on the challenge of protecting the nation’s top intelligence asset.
__________________
JJverse Star Trek...ROCKED on May 17, 2013 and beyond!
Enterprise is Great is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11 2013, 10:02 PM   #2172
stj
Rear Admiral
 
stj's Avatar
 
Location: the real world
Re: sf/f TV development news - 2013

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
I've always thought that there was vocabulary problem at work here, in that we tend to use the same words--bomb, flop, disaster--to describe both commercial and artistic failures, which are very different concepts. With the result that we often end up talking past each other.

Granted, there are plenty of shows that fail on both levels, and there may even be a causal link sometimes, but they aren't the same thing --and it can get confusing when we throw the terms around interchangeably.

Just because something bombed doesn't mean it sucked, and vise versa.

(There's also the understandable human tendency to conflate our individual opinions with the general audiences', as when we assume that because we and our like-minded friends all disliked something, it must have bombed at the box office, right?)
I once thought the same. But I can only believe now that the confusion is too useful for people who are primarily interested in the financials. These people control too much of mass media criticism for ordinary people to straighten up the language.
__________________
The people of this country need regime change here, not abroad.
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11 2013, 10:25 PM   #2173
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: sf/f TV development news - 2013

Enterprise is Great wrote: View Post
Meghan Ory To Star In CBS’ ‘Intelligence’

Ory will play Riley O’Neil, an ex Secret Service taking on the challenge of protecting the nation’s top intelligence asset.
Hmmm...She was made a regular on OUAT in order to prevent her from jumping ship?
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 12 2013, 12:07 AM   #2174
xortex
Commodore
 
Location: Staten Island, NY
Re: sf/f TV development news - 2013

stj wrote: View Post
• ARE THE CHARACTERS LIKABLE OR RELATABLE?
There is exactly one TV-viewing demographic that still cares about this: development executives laboring under the delusion that they’ll eventually find the next Cheers or Friends (both of which, by the way, were full of characters who often behaved terribly). You know who doesn’t care about likability? People who watch Game of Thrones, or Breaking Bad, or Mad Men, or Archer. This is usually the point at which networks assert that cable shows don’t have to reach as large an audience. But that doesn’t wash anymore, not when any number of network series are pulling lower ratings than Duck Dynasty and Sons of Anarchy.

...

• WILL THE AUDIENCE GET IT?
Most cable series proceed from the assumption that their viewers are looking for a good show. Most network series proceed from the assumption that their viewers are stupid and inattentive. That’s why the second episodes of network dramas are usually so boring that viewers flee — they’re essentially designed to reiterate and re-explain everything that unfolded in episode 1.

...

• IS THE SHOW LIKE SOMETHING ELSE THAT’S ON THE AIR?
This is actually not a bad question; the problem is the answer, which the networks want to be “Yes” when they, and we, should always be rooting for “No.” Only in network TV is past failure considered a sure sign of future success.

...

I get the counterargument: Safety sells. Familiarity works. Formula rules. Otherwise, the No. 1 show on TV wouldn’t be the 95th season of NCIS, and the reality shows we were enthusiastically watching in 2000 wouldn’t be the same ones that half of us are halfheartedly half-watching now. Still, something is amiss: In the recently concluded February sweeps, NBC finished fifth. And there are only four big English-language networks. Which means that maybe the most relevant question programmers should be asking when they consider this season’s pilots is “What do we have to lose?”
Mark Harris is (was?) a senior editor at Entertainment Weekly, which makes him an industry flack, even if his boy friend is Tony Kushner. His first question is completely misconceived, because the vast majority of supposedly good shows are every bit as committed to likable and relatable characters. It's just that cable's version of likable is sexy, which is a tougher to broadcast. Cable's version of relatable is bad ass, which many relate to because they can't imagine anything else they would want to be.

The second question is disingenuous. Broadcast really asks "Will the advertisers get it?" Or the FCC. This country's commitment to free speech depends largely upon the widespread tacit agreement not to exercise it in any major venue.

The last questioni is also disingenuous. Marris is a professional, so he knows very well that the broadcast networks have always offered some innovative programming, particularly when they were desperate enough that even smaller audiences would have been acceptable. There's a good case they have been more open to genuinely different formats than most cable offerings. I offer Cop Rock as the prima facie example.

Harris' examples (NBC's My Own Worst Enemy, Awake and Do No Harm) are complete BS. First, there are in fact very significant differences which shouldn't have been overlooked. Second, and more importantly, Do No Harm may not have been any good artistically. But it doesn't matter, because no one bothered to find out. Not getting an audience at all simply is not the same thing as being rejected as bad entertainment. The assumption is that popularity is a sign of artistic merit, and obscurity is the devil's mark of failure. This is mental bankruptcky.

Very nice couple of posts, Stj.
xortex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12 2013, 12:07 AM   #2175
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: sf/f TV development news - 2013

stj wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
I've always thought that there was vocabulary problem at work here, in that we tend to use the same words--bomb, flop, disaster--to describe both commercial and artistic failures, which are very different concepts. With the result that we often end up talking past each other.

Granted, there are plenty of shows that fail on both levels, and there may even be a causal link sometimes, but they aren't the same thing --and it can get confusing when we throw the terms around interchangeably.

Just because something bombed doesn't mean it sucked, and vise versa.

(There's also the understandable human tendency to conflate our individual opinions with the general audiences', as when we assume that because we and our like-minded friends all disliked something, it must have bombed at the box office, right?)
I once thought the same. But I can only believe now that the confusion is too useful for people who are primarily interested in the financials. These people control too much of mass media criticism for ordinary people to straighten up the language.
The ironic part is, this sort of confusion can muddle financial decisions, too. I've run into people in the business who truly believed that such-and-such book or movie had lost money because they didn't personally know anybody who liked it or because they had perhaps seen some negative reviews.

"Wait, you're saying SPACE VIXENS was a hit? I heard the movie was a bomb?"

"No, the movie was #1 at the box office, and the novelization went through ten printings . . . "

"Wow! Who knew? Maybe we should do more SPACE VIXENS books."

"That's what I'm saying . . . ."
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:11 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.