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Old December 31 2011, 11:44 PM   #61
Relayer1
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Syn.Sixx wrote: View Post
Then what about a new alternate reality timeline where she isn't dead, and continue that way?

I guarantee Pocket Books would sell more than enough copies of both timelines, with Janeway and those without.. to make it worth the effort.
I very much doubt it - it would not have the name of a major star universally identified with the role on the cover as author, and it would probably confuse a casual reader. There's a difference between Kirk being used 80(ish) years after his era and having two versions of the same era, one without and one with Janeway.

I also doubt sales would be strong enough to justify it.

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
Actually, the only way I would support bringing back Janeway would be if there was a guarantee that she would be publicly prosecuted and jailed for her actions in "Endgame." We've learned since her death that her actions led directly to the Borg's decision to invade and kill 60 Billion people. She is directly responsible for the devastation that befell the Federation. She died before the events of Destiny, so it was thought that she paid a price for he criminal behavior. However, if she is alive, there is no reason for her to walk free. She would have to be punished for her actions.

Janeway committed serious breaches of Federation law. There is no way you can justify her walking free after what she's done. My favorite part of "Watching the Clock" was Lucsly's absolute disgust at Janeway's behavior and anger at the uptime agents for letting her off the hook. Clearly they knew that Janeway would pay the ultimate price for her arrogance so there was no point in punishing her or undoing what she did (especially since they benefitted from her crime). But if she were to return, she would still need to face a severe penalty and own up to her role in the death of billions.
True - I really had not thought of this. What would be the point of bringing her back to rot in prison ?
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Old December 31 2011, 11:47 PM   #62
Therin of Andor
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Syn.Sixx wrote: View Post
Kirk is very much alive and well.
Only in eight novels by William Shatner; novels that are ignored by the main lines of ST tie-in novels, and even "New Frontier".

I know Data is not restored.
He is in "Star Trek Online: The Needs of the Many". And so is Admiral Janeway!

So why then do you insist that we're so out of line to say we want to see Kathryn Janeway back?

Your own bias is showing just a bit.
What bias? I loved the character of Janeway and I loved Kate Mulgrew's performances. But I also enjoyed watching Admiral Janeway forfeit her life to help defeat the Borg in "Endgame" - and "Before Dishonor"!

And Kirsten Beyer's books are doing extraordinarily well. The prologue to "Full Circle" brought tears to my eyes, and it was only starting!

And nothing you say or do, will ever change that.
So: conversation over, huh?

Have a nice life.
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Old January 1 2012, 01:16 AM   #63
Christopher
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
Actually, the only way I would support bringing back Janeway would be if there was a guarantee that she would be publicly prosecuted and jailed for her actions in "Endgame." We've learned since her death that her actions led directly to the Borg's decision to invade and kill 60 Billion people. She is directly responsible for the devastation that befell the Federation.
That's bull. Let's say that a jury convicts a murderer, and then years later the murderer escapes and kills the jurors' families. Does that make the jurors directly responsible for the deaths of their families? Of course not! It would be ridiculous to think that! A different murderer, one who felt remorse or wasn't as good as escaping or just wasn't as depraved and ruthless, wouldn't have killed them. So it was the murderer's own choices and actions, not the jurors', that made the ultimate difference in whether the families lived or died. So the responsibility lies with the murderer.

The Borg had been waging an unrelenting war against all other life in the galaxy for thousands of years. They'd slaughtered or assimilated uncounted trillions well before Janeway ever met them. They had already tried to assimilate the Federation at least twice and we know they had ongoing plans to try again. What they did in Destiny was merely the continuation of their own ongoing aggression against all other life. They and they alone are responsible for that.

The only way it would be remotely rational to suggest that Janeway was responsible for Destiny would be if the Borg had been a completely passive race, keeping to themselves and minding their own business, and Janeway had spontaneously decided to destroy their transwarp hub out of sheer malice, prompting their retaliation. But of course you know as well as the rest of us that that isn't even close to what happened. The Borg started it. The Borg were actively hostile toward the Federation and every other civilization in the whole damn galaxy. Janeway acted in defense of those civilizations. She did the right thing by trying to stop the beings who were doing wrong. The fact that those wrongdoers retaliated by choosing to inflict a greater wrong doesn't change the fact that she did the right thing. Because it was the Borg's choice to retaliate. The responsibility lies with them.

By your logic, nobody should ever take any action to stop a criminal or a warring nation, because then they'd be responsible for any retaliation the criminal or nation chose to inflict. By your logic, having police and courts and defensive armies is an immoral act, and we should all just sit back passively and do nothing to resist the predators and monsters because it's somehow our fault if they choose to direct their pre-existing predatory behavior into retaliation against our acts of self-defense. Is that seriously what you believe?


Janeway committed serious breaches of Federation law. There is no way you can justify her walking free after what she's done. My favorite part of "Watching the Clock" was Lucsly's absolute disgust at Janeway's behavior and anger at the uptime agents for letting her off the hook. Clearly they knew that Janeway would pay the ultimate price for her arrogance so there was no point in punishing her or undoing what she did (especially since they benefitted from her crime). But if she were to return, she would still need to face a severe penalty and own up to her role in the death of billions.
As the person who wrote that scene, I have to disagree emphatically with your interpretation. Lucsly wanted Janeway prosecuted for tampering with history, but he wouldn't have been so incredibly misguided as to think Janeway was somehow responsible for an act of genocide committed by a species that's already been committing genocide on an ongoing basis for thousands of years. That was never, ever, ever a factor in Lucsly's objections (and not just because that scene happened before Destiny).

Besides, you're forgetting the part where




Syn.Sixx wrote: View Post
Kirk is very much alive and well.
Only in the separate continuity of the Shatnerverse, and that's because William Shatner wanted it to happen. If Kate Mulgrew came to Pocket and said "I want to write books about Janeway so would you let me resurrect her?" then the folks at Pocket would eagerly say "yes" because they'd welcome having a celebrity's name on their book covers. It's about fame, not gender.


But for certain, 3 of your 5 characters who died were brought back.
And if you'd follow the link I posted in my first reply, you'd see that the books have killed off numerous other male and female characters from canon who have not been brought back, including, most recently,


Besides, given that the vast majority of the regular Trek characters killed in canon have been male (Tasha and Jadzia are the only females, and they were both already "brought back" after a fashion), it inevitably follows that the list of canonically dead characters brought back in the literature must be dominated by males. It couldn't possibly be otherwise. So that cannot be used as evidence of a gender bias on the part of the tie-in creators.


So why then do you insist that we're so out of line to say we want to see Kathryn Janeway back?
That's not what he said. He said you're out of line to blame her death on sexism. It's valid to express your own wishes and opinions. It is not valid to make unsupported accusations about the motivations and beliefs of the people you disagree with.
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Old January 1 2012, 01:21 AM   #64
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Yeah.
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Old January 1 2012, 01:42 AM   #65
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

YEAH!!
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Old January 1 2012, 04:23 AM   #66
Bob Karo
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Is it too late to start a Bring Back Duffy petition?
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Old January 1 2012, 04:27 AM   #67
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Hell, let's bring back everyone, starting with Pike's yeoman who died before the events of "The Cage."
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Old January 1 2012, 04:36 AM   #68
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

So baisically we're talking about a Star Trek Blackest Night then.
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Old January 1 2012, 04:41 AM   #69
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

JD wrote: View Post
So baisically we're talking about a Star Trek Blackest Night then.
Yeah lets do that, super powered zombi trek characters killing everyone to add to their zombie army sounds awesome.
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Old January 1 2012, 05:19 AM   #70
MatthiasRussell
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Then we can ask: Who's the better zombie- zombie Picard or zombie Kirk? Zombie Janeway just doesn't compare.
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Old January 1 2012, 07:37 AM   #71
Syn.Sixx
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
Syn.Sixx wrote: View Post
KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Having read "Watching the Clock", I wonder if, in a reality where Janeway didn't die in "Before Dishonor", there are "Get Janeway out of jail!" petitions?
They'd be right next to the "Get James T. Kirk Out of Jail" petitions after he stole the Enterprise.. *wink

And no I am not trying to stir up a fuss so please take it in the spirit it was meant.. laugh, smile and have a great New Years!


To be honest, that's my favorite scene from the TOS films, when Kirk stole the Enterprise ..

Actually, the only way I would support bringing back Janeway would be if there was a guarantee that she would be publicly prosecuted and jailed for her actions in "Endgame." We've learned since her death that her actions led directly to the Borg's decision to invade and kill 60 Billion people. She is directly responsible for the devastation that befell the Federation. She died before the events of Destiny, so it was thought that she paid a price for he criminal behavior. However, if she is alive, there is no reason for her to walk free. She would have to be punished for her actions.

Janeway committed serious breaches of Federation law. There is no way you can justify her walking free after what she's done. My favorite part of "Watching the Clock" was Lucsly's absolute disgust at Janeway's behavior and anger at the uptime agents for letting her off the hook. Clearly they knew that Janeway would pay the ultimate price for her arrogance so there was no point in punishing her or undoing what she did (especially since they benefitted from her crime). But if she were to return, she would still need to face a severe penalty and own up to her role in the death of billions.


I really wasn't sure how to react to this, so I'm going to instead link to another post here on the TrekBBS forums as answer to your words. In the thread "Before Dishonour...seriously?!", the author of the recent Voyager novels points out the flaws in that line of reasoning. Kirsten Beyer's words far outshine anything I could say to counter it, so instead I'll link to her post now, and let her answer stand for me instead

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...&postcount=376
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Old January 1 2012, 08:25 AM   #72
Therin of Andor
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Then we can ask: Who's the better zombie- zombie Picard or zombie Kirk?
Zombie McCoy!


Zombie McCoy by Therin of Andor, on Flickr
From IDW's "Infestation Sketchbook".

See also:
http://www.startrekcomics.info/idwinfestation.html

and then there's:


Night of the Living Trekkies by Therin of Andor, on Flickr

and who can forget the trailer on Youtube:

http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/20...of-living.html
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Old January 1 2012, 11:09 AM   #73
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Syn.Sixx wrote: View Post
Kirk is very much alive and well.
Only in eight novels by William Shatner; novels that are ignored by the main lines of ST tie-in novels, and even "New Frontier".
But those novels were done in such a way that a Kirk fan could easily slot them in to the shared novel continuity, ignoring the minor continuity issues that arise between the books. They even use the same USS Titan crew invented for the Star Trek: Titan spin-off novels.
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Old January 1 2012, 12:53 PM   #74
Therin of Andor
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
But those novels were done in such a way that a Kirk fan could easily slot them in to the shared novel continuity, ignoring the minor continuity issues that arise between the books. They even use the same USS Titan crew invented for the Star Trek: Titan spin-off novels.
Sure, but when you read "New Frontier" (and a few other novels), you encounter stray dialogue that suggests - and sometimes reveals - that Kirk is still dead.
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Old January 1 2012, 01:10 PM   #75
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

...less of which exists in total than the references in tv/film Trek that tell us other parts of tv/film Trek can't have happened.

IIRC, New Frontier itself has recently come under some scrutiny for having several discontinuities with the greater novelverse, too.
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