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Old December 30 2011, 02:54 AM   #16
MatthiasRussell
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Though I am not a Janeway fan and consider VOY the weakest of the Trek series, I do agree it was a mistake to kill Janeway as I've discussed to death and have no desire to respout my opinions.

That said, this is not the right means to restore the character or "right the wrong". Cohersing the franchise to resurrect a character won't make for a good return story.

The efforts of Janeway fans would be better focused getting DST to produce a Janeway fig. Their efforts would probably get just as much results.

And may I add: "FORCE THE FRANCHISE TO RESURRECT DATA AND JANOS!!!!"
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Old December 30 2011, 02:56 AM   #17
MatthiasRussell
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Jedi_Master wrote: View Post
I trust that if Janeway is re - introduced to the storyline, it will be at the behest of the talented writers and editors of TrekLit. I trust their judgment in this issue, and do not see the need to force their hand.
Seconded.
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Old December 30 2011, 03:00 AM   #18
Julio Angel Ortiz
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Want to take bets on what page this thread will be closed by? I'm going to say Page 4.
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Old December 30 2011, 03:02 AM   #19
Jedi_Master
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Though I am not a Janeway fan and consider VOY the weakest of the Trek series, I do agree it was a mistake to kill Janeway as I've discussed to death and have no desire to respout my opinions.

That said, this is not the right means to restore the character or "right the wrong". Cohersing the franchise to resurrect a character won't make for a good return story.

The efforts of Janeway fans would be better focused getting DST to produce a Janeway fig. Their efforts would probably get just as much results.

And may I add: "FORCE THE FRANCHISE TO RESURRECT DATA AND JANOS!!!!"

Editors note - it is spelled "coercing".

I would eagerly support any "resurrect data" efforts. Data is a far more compelling, interesting, funny, and beloved character. Yet no one is organizing rallies in his behalf.
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Old December 30 2011, 03:08 AM   #20
MatthiasRussell
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

I like the "h".
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Old December 30 2011, 03:34 AM   #21
LightningStorm
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Dimesdan wrote: View Post
This will end well.
JD wrote: View Post
Really, again....REALLLYYYYYYY!!!?????
BillJ wrote: View Post
Who cares?
Julio Angel Ortiz wrote: View Post
Want to take bets on what page this thread will be closed by? I'm going to say Page 4.
Please refrain from mild trolling posts like these in what you all clearly already recognize as a highly charged emotional topic for some. You don't care? Fine. You want to sit back and "watch the show?" Fine. But don't post about it if you don't have something to say on the actual topic.
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Old December 30 2011, 04:24 AM   #22
Syn.Sixx
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Never fails to amaze me, the number of trolls who sit about and wait for someone to speak an opinion so that they can then be as rude, as callous and as flat out obnoxious as possible because they incorrectly believe that the internet allows for such inappropriate behavior.

You are all allowed your opinions.

As we are allowed ours.

Complain, make fun.. the only thing any of you have done is show yourselves to be small-minded, petty individuals.

Knock yourselves out with it..

We're still going to continue to try and make a difference. And for the person who commented about no one having started an effort to bring back Data.. So start one.

What's stopping you?

Besides knowing you'll have to deal with a bunch of petty little trolls that is..
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Old December 30 2011, 05:04 AM   #23
Turtletrekker
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Syn.Sixx wrote: View Post
And for the person who commented about no one having started an effort to bring back Data.. So start one.

What's stopping you?
Well I can't speak for the poster in question, but my answer would be that it would be pointless and have absolutely no effect on the stories that the authors and editors want to tell. People have been threatening to protest/boycot/whatever against the Voyager books ever since Janeway was killed, and the only reaction has been to continue with the story full-speed ahead.

And as I stated upthread, the current post-Janeway VOY arc is, IMHO, the best Voyager has ever been.

callous and as flat out obnoxious as possible because they incorrectly believe that the internet allows for such inappropriate behavior

the only thing any of you have done is show yourselves to be small-minded, petty individuals.

Besides knowing you'll have to deal with a bunch of petty little trolls that is.
As for "trolling","callous"? and "rude and inappropriate behvaior"? OK, the moderator called out some "'mild' trolling", as is his/her duty (and you'll note that no actual infractions were given out) but that seems like a thin-skinned over-reaction. "Rude and inappropriate"? "Inappropriate" how exactly? Were you called foul names and personally belittled? "Rude?" Christopher politely and accurately pointed out how you were wrong in just about every part of your OP. "Callous"? Over the fate of a fictional character who never has and never will ever exist in reality? Please.

If this is what you consider "inappropriate" for the internet, then you must be new.

You elicited some mild snark and you swoop in and call us inappropriate, petty and rude? Sounds more to me that you came in here with an agenda looking to start up a fight.

Can I ask you a question, Syn.Sixx? Have even read any Voyager books? Any of the post-Janeway books? Or are you just reacting to something that you've read on-line? Do you have a specific reason for not liking the post-Janeway books other than the fact that Janeway isn't in them? I'm guessing not. You call us "small-minded", but yet you can only see Voyager evolving in one specific direction? Hmmm.

We're still going to continue to try and make a difference.
Go for it. It is accurate when they say that there is no such thing as bad publicity. Your efforts will sell far more copies than they will prevent. Not trying to be rude. That's just reality.
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Old December 30 2011, 05:24 AM   #24
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Syn.Sixx wrote: View Post
You are all allowed your opinions.

As we are allowed ours.
Let's consider what the word "opinion" actually means, though, shall we? An opinion is a statement of personal feeling or preference. Saying "I like purple" or "I think pizza is yummy" is an opinion. But saying "The Golden Gate Bridge is purple" or "The Moon is made of pizza" is not an opinion, because it's a claim that something is objectively true. And it is an incorrect claim, one that contradicts the actual facts, so it cannot be defended as a legitimate opinion. It's just wrong.

Similarly, saying "I wish Janeway were back" or "I don't like the decision to kill her" is an opinion, and nobody disputes that you're entitled to feel that way. When it comes to things that actually are matters of opinion, things that are subjective, you're absolutely within your rights to feel however you want and to express those feelings. But "the people in charge of Pocket Books have said Janeway will never return" and "They would never treat a male character this way" are not opinions. They are allegations of fact, and their objective truth can be determined on the basis of the evidence. And the evidence shows that they are quite simply wrong.
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Old December 30 2011, 05:52 AM   #25
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Oh in Valen's name wil this ever end?

Maybe if Kirsten Beyer's novels had sucked maybe a way could have been found to bring her back. As for your comment that 'Kirk, Picard, Sisko, or any other male character so poorly', I take it you never saw Kirk die in Generations. I'm not upset Kirk was killed, I was upset that he died & that was about it. Big time male character, not what I'd call his character being treated well though some would argue he isn't quite dead thanks to the Shatnerverse (wonder how that plays out post Destany). Rough Beasts Of Empire was not Sisko @ his best either.

Let her rest in piece. If she must come back let it be something involving a Rogue Q or something.
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Old December 30 2011, 05:57 AM   #26
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Syn.Sixx, though I do not agree with the goal of your petition, I think it's really cool that you care enough about Janeway's story (and the story being told in Star Trek in general) to do it. (Although I'm afraid I have to agree with Turtletrekker's assessment of the likely effectiveness of the petition on the stories that will be told.)

I am also curious, Syn.Sixx, if you have read Beyer's post-Janeway novels. I don't mean that accusatorily; if you are a Janeway fan, then I would assume you are a Voyager fan. And I can attest to what others have said about Beyer's works here: they really are some of the best Voyager stories told. I would encourage you to read them as soon as you can. If you have read them already, I am curious what you thought of them.

I would like to further a comparison that Christopher made upthread about Janeway/Before Dishonor and Sisko/Rough Beasts of Empire; I think, if we are going to argue that the former's death was sexist, then the latter's treatment/depiction was racist. (Disclaimer: I disagree with both of these assertions, but I wish to make a point.)



Of course, this interpretation, though it does raise in some interesting questions, is ludicrous. The direction that DRGIII takes Sisko in RBOE makes sense in his overall character arc, makes sense given everything we have seen of Benjamin Sisko, and not just because Sisko's ancestors happen to have come from Africa. Sisko's actions have actual in-story justifications unrelated to his race, which is why his depiction is not racist.

Similarly, Janeway's death (well, assimilation, struggle and eventual companionship with Lady Q), did not happen simply because she is a woman. They happened because she was so driven that she fell into a trap. The TV series, Voyager, clearly depicted Janeway as being both curious and highly dedicated. That she would have gotten too close to the Borg in Before Dishonor is all-too-believable. (I really hope I'm remembering what happened correctly...)

(Now, we could [in another thread, in another sub-forum] debate whether or not Janeway's insane drive as depicted in BH was the result of an attitude prevalent during the production of Voyager that required Janeway to not have any flaws, so that the depiction of Star Trek's first female captain would not be seen as sexist... but I digress.)

Now, Syn.Sixx, if you were to argue that Janeway's, hmmm, "removal," shall we say, might be unfairly related to the relative lack of popularity of the TV show Voyager, particularly outside of Star Trek fandom, I think you might have a point. (Well, ENT was most recent, TOS was first, TNG was the relaunch for the modern incarnation of the franchise and DS9 had the longest running narrative arc in the history of Star Trek. VGR suffered from real development problems and never reached the popular or critical success of its predecessors.)
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Old December 30 2011, 06:52 AM   #27
CaptainDonovin
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Syn.Sixx wrote: View Post
Never fails to amaze me, the number of trolls who sit about and wait for someone to speak an opinion so that they can then be as rude, as callous and as flat out obnoxious as possible because they incorrectly believe that the internet allows for such inappropriate behavior.

You are all allowed your opinions.

As we are allowed ours.

Complain, make fun.. the only thing any of you have done is show yourselves to be small-minded, petty individuals.

Knock yourselves out with it..

We're still going to continue to try and make a difference. And for the person who commented about no one having started an effort to bring back Data.. So start one.

What's stopping you?

Besides knowing you'll have to deal with a bunch of petty little trolls that is..

As someone who posts here somewhat often (mostly treklit) I proudly consider myself a troll. I grew up near Detroit & people who live in the lower peninsula are called trolls by the upers (people who live in the upper peninsula).

Now back on topic. I understand wanting this character or that character back, but I also understand that these characters sometimes do die & can't always come back, even in Trek. Tasha died in season 1 of TNG, Jadzia died (which did torque me) in season 6 of DS9 (though Dax did return). Data died (may come back in B4's body but we'll see). Trip died which was a very poor way for that character to go (even though he really didn't die in the treklit verse).

My point is while I understand wanting your favorite character back, her absence has brought a freshness to the story lines, same with Data, Sisko's one year death, & Jadzia's deaths all had or have have given us some good reads with the new characters. Honor the memories of our favorites & embrace the new favorites.
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Old December 30 2011, 07:01 AM   #28
Jedi_Master
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Christopher wrote: View Post
Syn.Sixx wrote: View Post
You are all allowed your opinions.

As we are allowed ours.
Let's consider what the word "opinion" actually means, though, shall we? An opinion is a statement of personal feeling or preference. Saying "I like purple" or "I think pizza is yummy" is an opinion. But saying "The Golden Gate Bridge is purple" or "The Moon is made of pizza" is not an opinion, because it's a claim that something is objectively true. And it is an incorrect claim, one that contradicts the actual facts, so it cannot be defended as a legitimate opinion. It's just wrong.

Similarly, saying "I wish Janeway were back" or "I don't like the decision to kill her" is an opinion, and nobody disputes that you're entitled to feel that way. When it comes to things that actually are matters of opinion, things that are subjective, you're absolutely within your rights to feel however you want and to express those feelings. But "the people in charge of Pocket Books have said Janeway will never return" and "They would never treat a male character this way" are not opinions. They are allegations of fact, and their objective truth can be determined on the basis of the evidence. And the evidence shows that they are quite simply wrong.
I agree with Christopher (twice in one day - new record!)

Janeway - for better or worse - is no longer part of the Voyager stories. If any fan wants to change that, perhaps they could submit to the long and arduous process of actually WRITING a novel that would include the return of Janeway, getting it approved and published. I am sure that we would heartily enjoy that novel, if it was well written.

But attempting to force artists to produce art that appeals to a sub-group of fans is unfair and narrow minded in my "opinion".
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Old December 30 2011, 07:08 AM   #29
Admiral James Kirk
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

I think a sign of good faith should be in order to take this petition seriously. The petitioners should all agree one a predetermined date to purchase a copy of the novel Star Trek Online: The Needs of the Many which features a Janeway who is both alive and breathing.

Why should Pocket take a petition seriously if it doesn't guarantee them sales? Past petitioners have outright said they've never even purchased Voyager novels before and had no intention of buying them even if Janeway was brought back. They just wanted her brought back on principle. Well for a big corp like Pocket principle isn't reason enough. Especially if the Voyager A.D. books are selling well without her. If you want to see your hero brought back then you're going to need to put your money where your mouths are.

It ain't pretty but it's the way of the world. Pocket isn't in the business of making friends. They're in the business of making money. Not that there's anything wrong with that!
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Old December 30 2011, 07:25 AM   #30
MatthiasRussell
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Re: Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager books! Online Petition!

Of course Needs of the Many is relevant only to STO players and meaningless otherwise. It was also a dull read. STO also isn't respected as maintaining the same level of continuity as the relaunch series.

Great Data resurrection story, though, LOL.
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