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View Poll Results: After the James Bond series who do you consider the 2nd best series?
Bourne franchise 20 62.50%
Jack Ryan franchise 2 6.25%
Mission Impossible (Ethan Hunt) franchise 9 28.13%
XXX franchise 0 0%
Salt 0 0%
Other - please list in the thread 1 3.13%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 30 2011, 04:59 PM   #16
captcalhoun
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Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

OHMSS is crap.

there's about 8 decent bond movies and 4 of those are Brosnans.
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Old December 30 2011, 06:24 PM   #17
Enterprise is Great
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Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

I went with Mission Impossible. I love the Clancy novels but the movie adaptations aren't all that great except for Red October which is awesome. I like the Bourne movies but MI just excites me more.
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Old December 30 2011, 08:38 PM   #18
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Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

If we are just talking about movies then Bourne Trilogy beats all of them including all the Bond movies. Book wise I take the Tom Clancy ones over every thing else in this thread.

I also really like the John Clark character in the Tom Clancy books. To put it simply, John Clark is one badass mutha'fucking American Jedi. I wish Clancy wrote more books that focused on that character instead of Jack Ryan who I find a bit pedestrian.
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Old December 30 2011, 10:20 PM   #19
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Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

captcalhoun wrote: View Post
OHMSS is crap.

there's about 8 decent bond movies and 4 of those are Brosnans.

Goldeneye was okay, but you you can see it was really written for Dalton. It starts off back during the Dalton era and moves through him being evaluated to get his 00 status back.

I'll even admit TND had his moments, but things just got progressively worse from there. Things became bogged down in everything being personal and angsty. I like Brosnan as an actor, but his Bond was hardly great.
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Old December 30 2011, 10:31 PM   #20
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Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

^ It wasn't written for Dalton. They'd planned to get rid of Dalton for years before Goldeneye was written. The whole 'Dalton quits' thing was just a way for the guy to exit with some dignity. But he was let go, he didn't have a say in it.

And the prologue was actually set in the year between AVTAK and TLD - 1986, when there was no Bond (but when everyone expected Brosnan to land the role).
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Old December 30 2011, 11:03 PM   #21
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Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

captcalhoun wrote: View Post
OHMSS is crap.

there's about 8 decent bond movies and 4 of those are Brosnans.
Really? Apart from The World is not enough which i can barely tolerate the Brosnan Bonds are utter crap.. overlong commercials for watches, BMW cars, Vodka and anything else they could cram in who sponsored the movies and on top of that the stories sucked very hard.

It's not the fault of Brosnan though.. since the 80s when he was in talks to take over but couldn't because the Remington Steele producers wouldn't let him go i always thought he'd make an excellent Bond, i.e. charming as hell with that touch of britishness around him.
He did that well in the Bond movies but the rest was fail.
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Old December 30 2011, 11:30 PM   #22
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Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

I agree I'll take any two Brosnan Bonds over the two Craig Bonds for any viewing.
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Old December 31 2011, 12:05 AM   #23
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Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

I wonder what would've become of the Bond franchise had Die Another Day kept its style and tone of the first half instead of turning into a Roger Moore Bond movie in the second half.
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Old December 31 2011, 01:03 AM   #24
OdoWanKenobi
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Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
^ It wasn't written for Dalton. They'd planned to get rid of Dalton for years before Goldeneye was written. The whole 'Dalton quits' thing was just a way for the guy to exit with some dignity. But he was let go, he didn't have a say in it.
Care to back that up with some evidence?
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Old December 31 2011, 02:25 AM   #25
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Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

Aragorn wrote: View Post
I wonder what would've become of the Bond franchise had Die Another Day kept its style and tone of the first half instead of turning into a Roger Moore Bond movie in the second half.
That would have been one hell of a movie.. probably one of the best (even surpassing Casino Royale which i regard as the best Bond ever).. it's the best opening sequence of any Bond movie which makes the second half even more horrible because it totally wipes out and never recovers and to some was also the reason a reboot of the entire franchise was necessary (only for that iÄm grateful because we got Daniel Craig).
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Old December 31 2011, 10:26 AM   #26
AFEK ESLCAFE W
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Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

OHMSS is objectively better than Diamonds Are Forever, Moonraker, Octopussy, A View to a Kill, Die Another Day, and Quantum of Solace.

Only a minute minority would agree the otherway on this argument.
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Old December 31 2011, 11:23 AM   #27
captcalhoun
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Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

OHMSS fails for "this never happened to the other fella".

EPIC FAIL.
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Old December 31 2011, 01:48 PM   #28
AFEK ESLCAFE W
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Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

captcalhoun wrote: View Post
OHMSS fails for "this never happened to the other fella".

EPIC FAIL.
Connery would have improved the quality of said film in your eyes, then?
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Old December 31 2011, 05:30 PM   #29
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Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

OdoWanKenobi wrote: View Post
Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
^ It wasn't written for Dalton. They'd planned to get rid of Dalton for years before Goldeneye was written. The whole 'Dalton quits' thing was just a way for the guy to exit with some dignity. But he was let go, he didn't have a say in it.
Care to back that up with some evidence?
Not really.

You have to remember, this was all pre-internet, so I don't know of any links to back up the story. But anyone following movie magazines etc from 1989 onwards could follow the clues. I was an avid reader of the likes of Empire, Premiere etc at this time and was devouring all of them for news of the next, much-delayed Bond movie. In particular, I read an excellent article in Premiere magazine shortly after Brosnan was cast and also got some of this from Cubby Broccoli's autobiography When the Snow Melts.

It all began when LTK underperformed in the US and immediately tabloids started saying that Dalton was to be replaced. He was able to sue two of them for libel, because Eon dutifully backed him up and denied it and, in the UK, a defendant in a libel action has to prove that a story is true to succeed. So the tabloids backed down and paid Dalton money, but ultimately, they would be proven right - he was replaced for the next JB movie.

However, the Bond series remained in limbo and Dalton's career pretty much stalled between 1989-1995. Perhaps the nadir was when he appeared in the disastrous miniseries Scarlett, the sequel to Gone With the Wind. He was apparently telling friends that his career was over at this time. Why he wouldn't want to revive his career with a Bond movie is beyond me, if he truly did leave of his own volition.

During this time, Joel Silver was rumoured to be trying to buy the 007 rights from Eon and to be casting Mel Gibson. There was also talk of Bond going to the small screen, with the likes of Brosnan and a pre-Schindler Liam Neeson being linked to the role. The only times one saw Timothy Dalton being talked about in the role were in interviews with, er, Timothy Dalton.

Eventually Eon sorted out the legal issues but were told by MGM that they would have to replace Dalton. However, Cubby Broccoli was not only loyal to a fault (and a friend of Dalton's), but genuinely believed Dalton was a good Bond and was unlucky to be blamed for LTK's failure (he had a point here - it was released in the summer of Batman and other certain-to-be-hits like Ghostbusters II and Star Trek V also flopped, when competing with Burton's juggernaut). He refused. However, eventually co-producers Barbara Brocolli and Michael Wilson persuaded him that Dalton needed to be replaced.

You have to remember that Dalton genuinely loved being Bond and was very proud of the role. I read numerous interviews with him during the hiatus, where he insisted that he would be back and laughed off the rumours that he would be replaced for the next movie. He took the part very seriously, which is why he tried to make his 007 as close to that of the books as he could, vetting lines that he didn't think Fleming would have put in Bond's mouth. The idea that, having patiently sat out the delay, he opted to walk away from a revived series of movies just did not ring true at all. The 'Dalton quits' stories were rather sceptically received even at the time. It was widely known that he wasn't box-office friendly and the studio wanted a bigger name.

The announcement that the Bond series was back, that the new movie would be called Goldeneye and that Dalton was leaving all came on the one day. It was very clearly a package deal; Dalton's departure was clearly the only thing holding up the greenlighting of a new movie.

I've often thought that Dalton, more than any other actor apart from maybe Brosnan, was proud of being Bond. Connery came to view it as an albatross, Moore didn't take it seriously, Lazenby viewed it as a quick step to superstardom. Dalton actually seemed to enjoy it. So the idea that he quit after 6 years of kicking his heels, waiting for the movies to restart just beggars belief. All but the most gullible and PR-company-friendly showbusiness journalists took the same view at the time.

(Incidentally, Eon has form in this regards - when Roger Moore left, they put it about that he had decided to depart of his own choosing. However, Cubby's biography revealed that it wasn't Moore's decision. He had been told his services were no longer required, as he was too old. He was quite taken aback and disappointed to hear so, contrary to his statement at the time. Oddly, only Brosnan's dismissal was badly handled by Eon, making me think that a lot of the studio's classiness died along with Cubby. Cubby, being a friend of Dalton, glosses over the latter's departure in the biog, but it's not hard to read between the lines)

That bigger name the studio wanted wasn't necessarily Pierce Brosnan, who was well down the shortlist. Mad Mel was offered the part but was making Braveheart and turned it down. Liam Neeson, immediately post-Schindler also declined, fancying more serious roles (like, er Star Wars and The Haunting?). The tabloids were pushing for Hugh Grant, who had just made Four Weddings, pretty much on the basis that his girlfriend looked like a Bond girl, but fortunately for us all he laughed the offer away, saying it wasn't his cup of tea. Neeson's Schindler's List co-star Ralph Fiennes (the baddie in Skyfall) was keen but he envisaged Bond as a cold, ruthless assassin. Eon, after the Dalton experience, basically said 'Don't call us, we'll call you.'

Enter Mr Brosnan, who wanted the role a lot more than the producers wanted him and who had spent most of the last decade talking about how much he rued losing it last time out.

Goldeneye was not expected to be a big hit. Martin Campbell was unproven as a movie director (his last movie, No Escape was neither a critical nor commercial hit) and it was felt that Bond was passe in the post Lethal Weapon, Die Hard era - not to mention the post-Cold War era. Arnie and James Cameron had out-Bonded Bond the year before with True Lies. Brosnan's only box-office hits in recent years had been Mrs Doubtfire, where he played smarmy second fiddle to Robin Williams and The Lawnmower Man, a surprise hit down to its SFX. I remember in Empire magazine's preview of 1995, they downplayed its chances of success, saying that Bond would need to be on tip-top form to hold his own against the likes of Batman Forever and, ahem, Judge Dredd.

Goldeneye had a modest enough budget, which was increased, as MGM saw rushes from the movie and were impressed with what they saw.

I'd also say that the idea that Goldeneye was written for Dalton doesn't stand up to any viewing of the movie. Licence to Kill was specifically written for Dalton. It's grim, humourless and possibly the least like a James Bond movie of any in the series. It's impossible to imagine it having been made had Brosnan or Sam Neill been cast as Moore's replacement.

Whereas Goldeneye plays like a greatest hits of Bond, in the best sense of that expression. It's very much a 'give the audience what it wants' movie. It restored the one-liners, the humour, the wink to the audience, the OTT-plot (compare its satellite weaponry with LTK's drug-dealer plot), the Russian baddies, but with a twist of its own (female M, post-Cold War world, baddie who is ex-MI6 and who has good cause to dislike British Intelligence). I for one can't imagine Dalton adjusting his tie during the tank chase like Brosnan did nor can I imagine the repartee between him and M working as well as it did with Brosnan. Goldeneye was very much written as a reaction against LTK's attempt to move away from the Bond formula. It was exactly what the series needed at that time.

(Off-topic, but I don't think Brosnan gets enough credit nowadays for reviving the fortunes of the franchise; few expected this washed up tv actor to be a success in the role - myself included)

So, dunno if you'd count that as evidence or not but it's the best I can do as a long-term Bond-watcher.
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Old December 31 2011, 06:34 PM   #30
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Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

As a long-term Bond-watcher who never really followed the behind-the-scenes aspect of the series, that was a fascinating read Captaindemotion, thanks!
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