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Old December 30 2011, 11:13 PM   #31
Lynx
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

New female captain on Voyager?

How pathetic!

They do kill off the best female captain we've ever seen in Star Trek and now they are gonna replace her with a weak copy. I find it almost insulting.
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Old December 31 2011, 12:09 AM   #32
Therin of Andor
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Lynx wrote: View Post
New female captain on Voyager?

How pathetic!

They do kill off the best female captain we've ever seen in Star Trek and now they are gonna replace her...
Not "they are gonna", it was done several novels ago and you know that, even if you haven't read them.

... with a weak copy
And you know this because...?

I find it almost insulting.
Perhaps not as insulting as you making such sweeping accusations as in your previous post.

So: Dead Janeway should have been replaced... by a male captain? The ship should have been... dismantled? Dead Janeway should be resurrected? Demoted?

Just what are you asking for that doesn't involve a reversal of time itself?
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Old December 31 2011, 12:17 AM   #33
RoJoHen
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Lynx wrote: View Post
New female captain on Voyager?

How pathetic!

They do kill off the best female captain we've ever seen in Star Trek and now they are gonna replace her with a weak copy. I find it almost insulting.
What a ridiculous reaction, especially since you clearly haven't read the books to know anything about the new captain A weak copy? What does that even mean?

I haven't read the books either, but I'm not about to jump to conclusions about a character I know nothing about.

VOY was a show about Captain Janeway trying to get her crew home. She succeeded. Anything Voyager does after that would have to be a pretty dramatic departure. The series would need an entirely new premise.

Honestly, without the drive to get her crew home, I don't know if I would even want to see Janeway anymore. That was her defining characteristic.
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Old December 31 2011, 12:39 AM   #34
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Don't you think kathryn knows that?

Why else Endgame?

Thinking about if Daystrom and Annorax had a baby.
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Old December 31 2011, 06:06 AM   #35
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

First, Therin,

Though this is probably not the best place to express this, I'm terribly sorry to hear about your mother and father. Truly, you have my deepest sympathies.

Second,

Lynx wrote: View Post
New female captain on Voyager?

How pathetic!

They do kill off the best female captain we've ever seen in Star Trek and now they are gonna replace her with a weak copy. I find it almost insulting.
Just, once again, in the interest of getting all of our facts straight...

When the Voyager Fleet was first dispatched back to the Delta Quadrant, The Admiral of the Fleet was Admiral Willem Batiste and Voyager's new captain was Captain Afsarah Eden.

By the end of Unworthy, Batiste had departed, Captain Eden became Fleet Commander, and Chakotay once again became Captain of Voyager.

Therin couldn't know that if he hasn't read past Full Circle, and I'm sorry to spoil that for you here but as the books have been out a good long while and I don't know how to do spoiler tags...apologies.

But no, we didn't replace Captain Janeway with a weak copy. Captain Eden was briefly Voyager's captain but as part of the ongoing story, Chakotay is once again in command of the ship that was his as established in Christie Golden's books.

Kirsten Beyer
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Old December 31 2011, 07:29 AM   #36
Therin of Andor
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Kirsten Beyer wrote: View Post
Though this is probably not the best place to express this, I'm terribly sorry to hear about your mother and father. Truly, you have my deepest sympathies.
Thanks Kirsten, as you can see, your books are going to be that much harder to read now that I'm coming from a new perspective. And, although I know you'd love to sink your teeth into a juicy Janeway tale, it's gonna be a hard task if you are ever challenged to right Another Trek Resurrection story, and a very hard task for those of us who've lost loved ones in real life not to see a science fiction rebirth as trivial.

Therin couldn't know that if he hasn't read past Full Circle
Hahaha, even further proving my point to Lynx. One can't really comment accurately on books one hasn't read yet!
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Old December 31 2011, 07:59 AM   #37
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Kirsten Beyer wrote: View Post
First, Therin,

Though this is probably not the best place to express this, I'm terribly sorry to hear about your mother and father. Truly, you have my deepest sympathies.

Second,

Lynx wrote: View Post
New female captain on Voyager?

How pathetic!

They do kill off the best female captain we've ever seen in Star Trek and now they are gonna replace her with a weak copy. I find it almost insulting.
Just, once again, in the interest of getting all of our facts straight...

When the Voyager Fleet was first dispatched back to the Delta Quadrant, The Admiral of the Fleet was Admiral Willem Batiste and Voyager's new captain was Captain Afsarah Eden.

By the end of Unworthy, Batiste had departed, Captain Eden became Fleet Commander, and Chakotay once again became Captain of Voyager.

Therin couldn't know that if he hasn't read past Full Circle, and I'm sorry to spoil that for you here but as the books have been out a good long while and I don't know how to do spoiler tags...apologies.

But no, we didn't replace Captain Janeway with a weak copy. Captain Eden was briefly Voyager's captain but as part of the ongoing story, Chakotay is once again in command of the ship that was his as established in Christie Golden's books.

Kirsten Beyer
I've liked what you done so far and I enjoy Eden...actually I like Farkas more than Eden, but I do like them. I don't believe they were meant to replace Janeway because let's face it: no one can replace Janeway. As I said before, I still have that sense of loss and false hope of wanting to turn the page and see her pop up even though I know it won't happen. I still want Janeway to return and there's many things she could do and I wouldn't be opposed of her taking a demotion to get her butt back in space where she belongs...if she was somehow magically returned. However, I also know the likelihood of Janeway returning any time in the foreseeable future is pretty much nonexistent.

I won't loose hope however (no matter how futile), she was a childhood hero of mine and I must admit that when I first learned of her demise, I too was spitting venom, but my curiosity had me give in and give the books a chance. I will never believe killing Janeway was a good idea or that it's truly Voyager without her, but that's my prerogative, just like those whose views that oppose mine. I'll sign petitions to support her return, etc. but I won't go on head hunts for the writing staff.

I do have to say I don't care much for Chakotay being captain. I do like him as a character and as a first officer, but he never had that captain's presence to me...even when he was Maqui. But, that's just me and hopefully my perception changes as the books go on.

Ms. Beyer, keep up the good work and hopefully if Pocket Books does decide to finally give us back Janeway, I hope you're still around to be given the honor to do that.
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Old December 31 2011, 09:41 AM   #38
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
New female captain on Voyager?

How pathetic!

They do kill off the best female captain we've ever seen in Star Trek and now they are gonna replace her with a weak copy. I find it almost insulting.
What a ridiculous reaction, especially since you clearly haven't read the books to know anything about the new captain A weak copy? What does that even mean?

I haven't read the books either, but I'm not about to jump to conclusions about a character I know nothing about.

VOY was a show about Captain Janeway trying to get her crew home. She succeeded. Anything Voyager does after that would have to be a pretty dramatic departure. The series would need an entirely new premise.

Honestly, without the drive to get her crew home, I don't know if I would even want to see Janeway anymore. That was her defining characteristic.
Ridiculous reaction? Why? Am I not allowed to react when something I actually liked is ruined?

Sorry, I'm not one of this sheep who just bow their heads and accept everything, good or bad. When I dislike something, I react.

And if you want a change, then you have to speak up.

As for a new premise, wouldn't it be better in that case if Voyager was laid to rest and if those in charge of the relaunch used their talent and skill on a story with a new ship and new crew. There they could add as many Edens and Batistes as they wanted, waste, kill off or replace as many important crew members as necessary for the premise of that story and leave us Voyager fans alone with our memories and our fan fiction?
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Old December 31 2011, 10:07 AM   #39
Therin of Andor
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Lynx wrote: View Post
and leave us Voyager fans alone with our memories and our fan fiction?
Ah, but you represent a very small sample of VOY fans. The Relaunch novels are being enjoyed by many ST fans, some of whom were always diehard and casual VOY fans, and some others who now count VOY as one of their favourite novel series.

And you still have your memories and your fan fiction.

wouldn't it be better in that case if Voyager was laid to rest
Imagine the outcry: "Out of all the Star Trek series, the one that got its book tie-ins cancelled was the one with the female captain!"
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Old December 31 2011, 10:58 AM   #40
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
and leave us Voyager fans alone with our memories and our fan fiction?
Ah, but you represent a very small sample of VOY fans. The Relaunch novels are being enjoyed by many ST fans, some of whom were always diehard and casual VOY fans, and some others who now count VOY as one of their favourite novel series.

And you still have your memories and your fan fiction.

wouldn't it be better in that case if Voyager was laid to rest
Imagine the outcry: "Out of all the Star Trek series, the one that got its book tie-ins cancelled was the one with the female captain!"
But the female captain is already wasted! So what's the point?

You can also turn it into: The only captain which was killed off in those relaunch books was the female captain.

As for representing "a small sample" of the Voyager fans, I'm not so sure about that. Many Voyager fans have simply turned their backs on the relaunch books because of the "changes"and aren't even participating in those debates. Then we also have those who hated the series and Janeway as well and who might find this new course of the events more appealing. I'm constantly running into those who participate in this debate who never liked the TV series and only show up on the Voyager forum when a thread about the books and/or a campaign for bringing back Janeway starts to praise the new direction of the books and in some cases show their happiness over the fact that Janeway was ditched. Are they really Voyager fans? I'm not so sure about that.

I know that there are many Voyager fans who buy the books too but I'm sure that even more should buy them if they were about the Voyager crew from the series.
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Old December 31 2011, 06:25 PM   #41
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Lynx wrote: View Post

Ridiculous reaction? Why? Am I not allowed to react when something I actually liked is ruined?

Sorry, I'm not one of this sheep who just bow their heads and accept everything, good or bad. When I dislike something, I react.
It's a ridiculous reaction because you clearly haven't even read the books yet! You're making judgments based on second-hand information.
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Old December 31 2011, 07:46 PM   #42
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Lynx:

1) VOYAGER WAS AN ENSEMBLE SHOW, as are/were all of the other Star Trek series. It wasn't based solely around Janeway, nor should it have been.

2) To date, the only major characters from the television series who are not part of the Voyager Relaunch novels are Janeway and Tuvok. Everyone else is still there, so this idea that 'more people would buy the novels if they were about the actual crew of Voyager' is a rather ludicrous one, because the novels ARE ABOUT THE ACTUAL CREW OF VOYAGER (sans two).

3) Janeway was effectively removed from playing an active role in the Voyager Relaunch by Christie Golden in Homecoming, The Further Shore, and the Spirit Walk duology; Kirsten Beyer included her in part of Full Circle because she needed to use that novel to build up to Janeway's eventual 'death' as seen in Before Dishonor, even though she wasn't going to rehash said 'death' within the pages of Full Circle itself, but Janeway was, at best, a periphery character throughout the entirety of her particpation in the storylines utilized and presented in FC, so, if you're mad about Janeway 'not being part of the novels', you really ought to be ranting and raving against Christie Golden as well as Kirsten Beyer (although I personally think that this whole mindset of being pissed off about Janeway being A) not part of the Voyager novels and B) 'dead' is stupid).

4) Janeway was replaced as Voyager's Captain by Chakotay, not some 'weak female copycat', but you apparently wouldn't know that since you've chosen to boycott the novels because they dont adhere to your viewpoint of what Voyager is, was, and should be. I should also note that Chakotay replacing Janeway as Voyager's Captain was done by Christie Golden in the Spirit Walk duology, and set up in Homecoming and The Further Shore.

5) As Kirsten Beyer has already said, Asfarah Eden replaced Chakotay as Voyager's Captain, and she is far from being a 'weak female copycat' of Janeway, but, again, you apparently wouldn't know that since you've chosen to boycott the Voyager novels because they don't adhere to your viewpoint of what Voyager is, was, and should be.

6) Presuming that you and those who share your views re: Janeway and Voyager represent a large or 'majority' portion of the Voyager fandom is the height of arrogance and, quite frankly, extremely insulting to me personally. As I noted in the version of this thread that was posted in Trek Lit, I consider myself to be a fan of Kathryn Janeway's character. My being supportive of the decisions made re: Janeway's character and what Kirsten Beyer has done in relation to said decisions IN NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM MAKES ME 'LESS' OF A FAN OF VOYAGER THAN YOU AND THE OTHERS WHO SHARE YOUR VIEWPOINTS RE: JANEWAY AND HER INCLUSION - OR THE LACK THEREOF - IN THE VOYAGER RELAUNCH NOVELS.
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Old December 31 2011, 09:34 PM   #43
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

To CoveSanta, who said that online petitions are a worthless means of getting attention,that's not true. Online petitions do work, as has been proven by countless successful efforts over the years. The only way it doesn't work is if someone just shakes their head and says "It's not worth even trying.."

You'll never accomplish anything if you don't try. The online petition is only one part of what the group is trying to do, there are also letter writing campaigns to send mail to the publishers through the postal service.

It may seem like in the world today, something like this isn't that big of a deal but to some of us, it's worth taking a moment of our time to stand up and show support for the idea. It really doesn't take more than a minute or two to sign, it doesn't take more than a few minutes to print a letter and place it into an addressed envelope and stick a stamp on it.

I'm doing this because it's something I'd like to see. And I know I'm not the only one who feels that the novel-verse books, without Kathryn Janeway.. are not Voyager.

Instead of Fleet Captain Eden leading things.. put Admiral Janeway in her place. Leave Chakotay as Captain of Voyager.. and continue with the characters and people from the series who those of us who are fans loved to start with!
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Old December 31 2011, 09:39 PM   #44
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Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post

There's nothing to stop an author pitching a Janeway story in which her death in the other 24th century Relaunch novels is ignored. For example, there is already the novelization of "Star Trek Online: The Needs of the Many", in which Janeway is alive long after Romulus is destroyed.

Therin makes a great point! I know I would happily buy a 'new' novel series based on that concept where Admiral Janeway is still alive.

Really that's what we're asking for (at least from my point of view)

I know some people didn't like Janeway. And that's perfectly fine with me really.. what I don't like is the attitude that killing a major canon character off in such a pointless fashion (and again, that's my opinion where I state it was pointless and may not be what others think).

I have continued to read the novels without her, in the hope that because she was taken into the Q Continuum that she WOULD indeed make her return at some point in the storyline which had not yet been reached.

I've joined into this movement because we've now had several novels without her and I find them disappointing and just.. off. It just doesn't feel like Voyager without Kathryn Janeway!
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Old December 31 2011, 09:49 PM   #45
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Re: Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

Killandra wrote: View Post

I respectfully disagree and not just because I adore Janeway and she's one of my childhood heroes. Simply put, Janeway is one of the few characters that could not be thrown out to still have Voyager work. Kirsten Beyer is doing a good job w/o Janeway and honestly, the books have continued better than I originally thought they would however, Janeway was the unifying presence for the Voyager crew. No character can replace her presence or dynamic. The books since her demise in some ways read like it's a large away mission and we're waiting for her to magically appear on the next page. There is a feeling of a lost element and that element is Janeway. No Janeway= no Voyager.

I've talked to others who didn't care for Mulgrew's performance. I adore her as well. But all I can say is look as Ms. Bujold's work (the original casted Janeway) and I think you may appreciate Mulgrew a little.

Very well put .. and again, I freely admit to being another fan who falls into the category of "Adoring Janeway / Mulgrew Fans".

But I also respect that some people didn't like her.

What I don't like is being ridiculed or trolled by those who don't like her for saying that I do. But I'm willing to accept that sort of treatment from more ill-mannered trek fans because I believe that standing up and saying "Star Trek Voyager is NOT Star Trek Voyager without Kathryn Janeway as part of the stories."

It's a sad fact but true non-the less, a large number of Janeway supporters probably won't speak up simple because they don't feel like dealing with the rude response some people feel that being online and on the internet allows them to make.

I'll take it. Make fun, be rude as you want. We're not giving up.

Voyager without Janeway.. is not Voyager and killing her off was wrong.
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