RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,397
Posts: 5,358,698
Members: 24,627
Currently online: 446
Newest member: space2050

TrekToday headlines

Star Trek: Prelude to Axanar Online Debut
By: T'Bonz on Jul 31

Warp 5.0: Trek Toward Sci-Fi’s Golden Anniversary
By: T'Bonz on Jul 31

Takei To Host Pittsburgh Symphony PNC Pops’ Sci-Fi Spectacular
By: T'Bonz on Jul 31

Kurtzman In Mummy Talks
By: T'Bonz on Jul 31

The Gene Roddenberry Project Kickstarter
By: T'Bonz on Jul 30

Moore: No Deep Space Nine Regrets
By: T'Bonz on Jul 30

Pegg Star Wars Rumor
By: T'Bonz on Jul 30

Borg Cube Fridge
By: T'Bonz on Jul 29

Free Enterprise Kickstarter
By: T'Bonz on Jul 29

Siddig To Join Game Of Thrones
By: T'Bonz on Jul 29


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science and Technology

Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 22 2011, 07:07 PM   #1
Savage Dragon
TheSeeker
 
Savage Dragon's Avatar
 
Location: New York, NY
Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than light

I don't post in here often but I thought this was worth sharing.

http://io9.com/5842947/scientific-br...ter-than-light

Would individuals smarter than myself care to debate this?
Savage Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 22 2011, 07:38 PM   #2
stonester1
Rear Admiral
 
stonester1's Avatar
 
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh

Coolness.
__________________
"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells
stonester1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 22 2011, 07:42 PM   #3
Asbo Zaprudder
Rear Admiral
 
Asbo Zaprudder's Avatar
 
Location: Magic realism
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh

The result would tend to agree with measurements that implied that neutrinos have imaginary mass and thus are perhaps tachyonic in nature. There is much hand wringing about this on various blogs around CERN with people worrying that their grandfather might get bumped off. The prosaic answer is that it might all turn out to be systematic error that has led to this 6 sigma observation.
__________________
"Sans le canard de Vaucanson vous n'auriez rien qui fit ressouvenir de la gloire de la France." -- Voltaire -- Flip flap!
Asbo Zaprudder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 22 2011, 08:01 PM   #4
YellowSubmarine
Commodore
 
YellowSubmarine's Avatar
 
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh

My understanding is that tachyons are expected to not violate causality because it's either impossible to measure their position, or because they exist for a minimal period of time, and the detectable disturbances they create always travel at sublight speed. How does this relate to neutrinos? Do we know that these things do not apply to them? If they do not, is there any other mechanism that can stop causality violations?

In short, does this violate it, and if not, why not?
YellowSubmarine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 22 2011, 08:44 PM   #5
23skidoo
Admiral
 
Location: Fifth Circle of Hell
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh

This is sort of old news. As long ago as 15 years back there were reports of particles being clocked faster than light. And reportedly some particles were time-shifted too. Still, it's nice to have something like CERN come out with this so people become aware. Also, wasn't testing the speed of light one of CERN's mandates, too?

Alex
__________________
"These are historical documents - preserving them is important. Tarting them up for a night out in the twenty-first century is unnecessary" - Toby Hadoke, "Should mistakes in old episodes of Doctor Who be fixed on DVD" (Doctor Who Magazine #445)
23skidoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 22 2011, 08:50 PM   #6
Asbo Zaprudder
Rear Admiral
 
Asbo Zaprudder's Avatar
 
Location: Magic realism
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh

One suggestion is that neutrinos can take shortcuts by oscillating out of the brane of our universe into neighbouring branes, which photons cannot do. Even if not the case, it sounds like a handy plot MacGuffin for a S-F author to exploit.
__________________
"Sans le canard de Vaucanson vous n'auriez rien qui fit ressouvenir de la gloire de la France." -- Voltaire -- Flip flap!
Asbo Zaprudder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 23 2011, 06:18 AM   #7
Dream
Admiral
 
Dream's Avatar
 
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh

Why is everybody in such a hurry to disprove Einstein these days?

__________________
=)
Dream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 23 2011, 08:37 AM   #8
John O.
Rear Admiral
 
Location: the bush
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh

The CERN study was actually investigating flavor changing, they really weren't out to show that neutrinos could move FTL. Which doesn't surprise me, the idea that they do/can is so absurd nobody would've thought to actually approach it as a research topic

It's a fascinating claim... I will be anxious to see what it turns up but I am cautiously skeptical. I'd love to hear them determine that... its a verification of multidimensionality, or a sign of spacetime warping, or perhaps an indication that neutrino mass fluctuates and can locally become negative.... but the margin of error is very nearly the margin by which it's faster. I was reading on SlashDot - 732 km column the beam passed through they believe they know it accurately to about 20 cm. In 60ns, a beam of light apparently travels about 18 meters, so that's the spatial difference we're talking about. They claim their margin of error on the travel time is +/- 10ns but some informed individuals on SlashDot were questioning whether perhaps they had mischaracterized the kaon/pion decay times; or, perhaps, discovered new modes of decay which were fudging their 'start times'.

In any case I do hope it leads to an important discovery, whatever it may be, and not someone facepalming over a computational error or an equipment glitch. They said they did it 15,000 times to be sure.

Someone already posed this question - but what is known about neutrino information-containment? For instance it's been suggested that tachyons could not be encoded with information. Supposing these neutrinos are found to rotate in and out of an extra dimension which allows them to move quasi-FTL - they would be useful for FTL communication if 1) they could be encoded with information, 2) they could be generated easily like radio waves and 3) could be absorbed/detected easily. That 3rd one's a biggy.
__________________
Tucker: Why can't you just say it?
T'Pol: I want you to come back.
~~~~~
Trip n' T'Pol are Alive and Well at Triaxian Silk
John O. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 23 2011, 09:43 AM   #9
Asbo Zaprudder
Rear Admiral
 
Asbo Zaprudder's Avatar
 
Location: Magic realism
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but is there anything in the formulation of Special Relativity that demonstrates that the maximum speed (presumably of information) has to be identically equal to the speed of light? I thought that the identification of the two things as being equal was an assumption. If so, perhaps that assumption needs examining. However, as you say, if no information can be transmitted, then there is no Lorentz violation.
__________________
"Sans le canard de Vaucanson vous n'auriez rien qui fit ressouvenir de la gloire de la France." -- Voltaire -- Flip flap!
Asbo Zaprudder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 23 2011, 10:32 AM   #10
Ayelbourne
Fleet Captain
 
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh

TheSeeker wrote: View Post
I don't post in here often but I thought this was worth sharing.
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/9/23/72569c4c-1e86-45e9-b95c-1c11a3fafb2a.jpg

Sorry, it was just too tempting.
Ayelbourne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 23 2011, 12:16 PM   #11
Savage Dragon
TheSeeker
 
Savage Dragon's Avatar
 
Location: New York, NY
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh

^

Please keep discussing. I may not get it all but it's interesting!
Savage Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 23 2011, 12:47 PM   #12
iguana_tonante
Admiral
 
iguana_tonante's Avatar
 
Location: Italy, EU
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh

Very interesting results. As other have said, the community need to cross-examine their data more than once, because systematic errors are sneaky like that. But if it's true, we are in for a great time in fundamental physics. Let's hope so.
__________________
Scientist. Gentleman. Teacher. Fighter. Lover. Father.
iguana_tonante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 23 2011, 01:02 PM   #13
Asbo Zaprudder
Rear Admiral
 
Asbo Zaprudder's Avatar
 
Location: Magic realism
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh

Neutrinos exceeding the speed limit would just have to happen in Italy, wouldn't it. I bet they're all driving tiny little Fiats.
__________________
"Sans le canard de Vaucanson vous n'auriez rien qui fit ressouvenir de la gloire de la France." -- Voltaire -- Flip flap!
Asbo Zaprudder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 23 2011, 01:04 PM   #14
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh

60 nanoseconds faster than light? Is that really that awesome? A photon is influenced by electromagnetic fields, a neutrino isn't. And then isn't 60 nanoseconds more likely to be a computational issue?

Asbo Zaprudder wrote: View Post
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but is there anything in the formulation of Special Relativity that demonstrates that the maximum speed (presumably of information) has to be identically equal to the speed of light? I thought that the identification of the two things as being equal was an assumption. If so, perhaps that assumption needs examining. However, as you say, if no information can be transmitted, then there is no Lorentz violation.
I think that's a good point.


***
Some articles say that the time at start and end point is measured using GPS and that the nanosecond difference might be caused by that. D'oh!
__________________
lol
l
/\

Last edited by JarodRussell; September 23 2011 at 01:22 PM.
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 23 2011, 01:22 PM   #15
iguana_tonante
Admiral
 
iguana_tonante's Avatar
 
Location: Italy, EU
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh

Asbo Zaprudder wrote: View Post
Neutrinos exceeding the speed limit would just have to happen in Italy, wouldn't it. I bet they're all driving tiny little Fiats.
Somebody made the same joke today at work. "In Italy, nobody respects the speed limit."
__________________
Scientist. Gentleman. Teacher. Fighter. Lover. Father.
iguana_tonante is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:32 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.