RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,540
Posts: 5,513,192
Members: 25,142
Currently online: 474
Newest member: lergondo

TrekToday headlines

Two New Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Dec 26

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 17 2011, 06:59 PM   #106
dispatcher812
Commander
 
dispatcher812's Avatar
 
Location: Somewhere in the Romulan Star Empire
Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

Wow, 4 new books next year. I can't wait. I thinkI need to reread the Typon Pact books to catch me up. I have had a hard time finding stuff to read in the interm and am looking forward to all of these. Especialy the Titan and Voyager. Its going to be a great summer of reading.
dispatcher812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17 2011, 09:56 PM   #107
21Spike65
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: New York...No, not the city...
Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

JD wrote: View Post
Earlier in the thread someone was saying that the Andorians will join Typhon Pact, which I don't think we even know is 100% at this point, as an agressive move against the Federation. Now I still haven't gotten to the point in PoD where they leave the Federation, but based on what's been said on the boards, and what I have read so far, I'm thinking that the reason they might join is simply because the TP helped them, when in their minds the Federation didn't. Sure they might have been pissed at the Federation, but I don't see them suddenly turning on them. I really think if it does happen, it'll be more of a "they helped us when you didn't, so we're joining up with them", not a " you didn't help us, so now we're joining your enemies so we can destroy you" situation.
Yeah, regardless of whether Andor joins the Typhon Pact or not, I can't see them ever wanting a war with the Federation. Even ignoring the fact that they've been allies with the other Federation member worlds for two centuries, there's simply their tactical situation. We know Andor was one of the founding members of the Federation, so I think it's reasonable to assume they are pretty centrally located within Federation space. In all likelihood, that probably means they are now completely surrounded by Federation space, or at the very least mostly surrounded. Not exactly the best position to be in when starting a war.

Furthermore, the main cause for them leaving the Federation relates to their ongoing reproduction problems. With their numbers dwindling already, sending off scores of their citizens to die in a war seems like it would negate any progress they might make from the new information available to them. They're trying to save their race, not find more ways to speed up its extinction.
__________________
-Spike
Last Read: The Eternal Tide
Currently Reading: Unspoken Truth
Next Up: Missing in Action
21Spike65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17 2011, 10:18 PM   #108
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

21Spike65 wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
Earlier in the thread someone was saying that the Andorians will join Typhon Pact, which I don't think we even know is 100% at this point, as an agressive move against the Federation. Now I still haven't gotten to the point in PoD where they leave the Federation, but based on what's been said on the boards, and what I have read so far, I'm thinking that the reason they might join is simply because the TP helped them, when in their minds the Federation didn't. Sure they might have been pissed at the Federation, but I don't see them suddenly turning on them. I really think if it does happen, it'll be more of a "they helped us when you didn't, so we're joining up with them", not a " you didn't help us, so now we're joining your enemies so we can destroy you" situation.
Yeah, regardless of whether Andor joins the Typhon Pact or not, I can't see them ever wanting a war with the Federation. Even ignoring the fact that they've been allies with the other Federation member worlds for two centuries, there's simply their tactical situation. We know Andor was one of the founding members of the Federation, so I think it's reasonable to assume they are pretty centrally located within Federation space. In all likelihood, that probably means they are now completely surrounded by Federation space, or at the very least mostly surrounded. Not exactly the best position to be in when starting a war.

Furthermore, the main cause for them leaving the Federation relates to their ongoing reproduction problems. With their numbers dwindling already, sending off scores of their citizens to die in a war seems like it would negate any progress they might make from the new information available to them. They're trying to save their race, not find more ways to speed up its extinction.
Don't be silly. Everyone knows the Empire -- excuse me, the Federation -- is Good and Pure, and anyone who wants to belong to the other club must therefore be the Enemy and Evil. Because any story that depicts the Federation as having problems is automatically dystopian and horrible. The Empire should never be depicted in a negative light!
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17 2011, 10:38 PM   #109
Rķu rķu, chķu
Fleet Admiral
 
Rķu rķu, chķu's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View Rķu rķu, chķu's Twitter Profile
Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

21Spike65 wrote: View Post
We know Andor was one of the founding members of the Federation, so I think it's reasonable to assume they are pretty centrally located within Federation space. In all likelihood, that probably means they are now completely surrounded by Federation space, or at the very least mostly surrounded.
I think it would just not be worth the effort for the Typhon Pact to try and get Andor to join. Assuming that, Andor's location notwithstanding, the Federation would not be able to prevent Andor from making that move (is that certain, BTW? Even though Andor is no longer a member, would the Federation be able to block Andor from joining the Pact, citing the inevitable and obvious security concerns?), the Pact would surely not be able to make any decent amount of supply or even troop movements into and out of Andorian territory. The Federation would, quite justifiably IMHO, harass Pact vessels so much they'd never accomplish anything.
__________________
"A hot dog at the ballpark is better than a steak at the Ritz." - Humphrey Bogart
Rķu rķu, chķu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17 2011, 10:42 PM   #110
21Spike65
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: New York...No, not the city...
Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

^Ah, forgive me. For a second I thought we were talking about the Star Trek universe, where things aren't quite so black and white. How silly of me indeed.

(Edit: Referring to two posts up now...not quite fast enough =P)
__________________
-Spike
Last Read: The Eternal Tide
Currently Reading: Unspoken Truth
Next Up: Missing in Action
21Spike65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17 2011, 10:43 PM   #111
Rķu rķu, chķu
Fleet Admiral
 
Rķu rķu, chķu's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View Rķu rķu, chķu's Twitter Profile
Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

Plus we should remember that there still is a sizable minority of Andorians who opposed secession and are still firmly on the Federation's side. If Andor made any openly aggressive moves, such people might find a way to hinder or block it, or at least pass sensitive intel to the Federation.
__________________
"A hot dog at the ballpark is better than a steak at the Ritz." - Humphrey Bogart

Last edited by Rķu rķu, chķu; December 17 2011 at 11:12 PM.
Rķu rķu, chķu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 18 2011, 01:00 AM   #112
Cybersnark
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: Toronto
Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

Actually, getting Andor to join would be a pretty large boon for the Pact; they now have an excuse for Pact-allied ships to cruise openly through the heart of the Federation. It may not mean much tactically (space is big, after all), but it'd be a major psychological blow.
__________________
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." --Oscar Wilde
Cybersnark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 18 2011, 01:09 AM   #113
Rķu rķu, chķu
Fleet Admiral
 
Rķu rķu, chķu's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View Rķu rķu, chķu's Twitter Profile
Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

Cybersnark wrote: View Post
Actually, getting Andor to join would be a pretty large boon for the Pact; they now have an excuse for Pact-allied ships to cruise openly through the heart of the Federation.
But that's the thing. The Federation would never allow such a blatant security risk (nor should they).

And even if they could not do anything, legally, to prevent it, Starfleet would do everything it could to harass Pact vessels to the point of making it worthless for the Pact to even try.
__________________
"A hot dog at the ballpark is better than a steak at the Ritz." - Humphrey Bogart
Rķu rķu, chķu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 18 2011, 01:12 AM   #114
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
21Spike65 wrote: View Post
We know Andor was one of the founding members of the Federation, so I think it's reasonable to assume they are pretty centrally located within Federation space. In all likelihood, that probably means they are now completely surrounded by Federation space, or at the very least mostly surrounded.
I think it would just not be worth the effort for the Typhon Pact to try and get Andor to join. Assuming that, Andor's location notwithstanding, the Federation would not be able to prevent Andor from making that move (is that certain, BTW? Even though Andor is no longer a member, would the Federation be able to block Andor from joining the Pact, citing the inevitable and obvious security concerns?),
I don't see how the Federation could prevent Andor from joining. Upon secession, the Andorian Empire would revert to its former status as a sovereign state, fully independent of the Federation. Given that, the Federation should be no more capable of preventing the Andorian Empire from joining the Typhon Pact, or any alliance, than, say, the United Kingdom is of preventing the Irish Republic from joining an alliance.

Barring bilateral treaties between the UFP and Andor, of course.

the Pact would surely not be able to make any decent amount of supply or even troop movements into and out of Andorian territory. The Federation would, quite justifiably IMHO, harass Pact vessels so much they'd never accomplish anything.
Hmm. In terms of working out how to move supplies in and out of Andor, I suppose it might end up being akin to the NATO alliance's arrangements for supplying West Berlin during the Cold War.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Cybersnark wrote: View Post
Actually, getting Andor to join would be a pretty large boon for the Pact; they now have an excuse for Pact-allied ships to cruise openly through the heart of the Federation.
But that's the thing. The Federation would never allow such a blatant security risk (nor should they).

And even if they could not do anything, legally, to prevent it, Starfleet would do everything it could to harass Pact vessels to the point of making it worthless for the Pact to even try.
I think the most probable scenario would be that the Federation, Andor, and Pact would work out some sort of treaty agreement on what kinds of supplies and ships may move through Federation space to and from Andor. The UFP would probably demand certain limits on military assistance in return for some concession to the Pact, and then, in return, the Pact would probably try to figure out how to smuggle stuff through, and the Federation would try to figure out how to spy on the Pact-aligned ships in order to prove they're breaking the treaty, etc. It would be a chess game for the most part.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 18 2011, 01:40 AM   #115
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

Of course, the Typhon Pact is already scattered all around the borders of the Federation and the other powers, so they already have to deal with that issue. The Breen, Tzenkethi, and Tholians are on one side of the UFP, the Romulans, Kinshaya, and Gorn on the opposite side. Federation space is pretty much directly between those two groups. Here's a rough map I made to illustrate it, with the Pact members in orange:



Which is interesting, come to think of it, since that means that the political divide between the more belligerent and more moderate powers within the Pact (as of the end of The Struggle Within) pretty much corresponds to the geographical (or astrographical) divide -- the belligerent powers are all on the Alpha Quadrant side and the moderates on the Beta Quadrant side. Although that's a bit of an oversimplification.

One can assume, though, that the other powers can go around UFP space in the third dimension. Andor would be pretty much surrounded by UFP space in all directions, z axis included.

Of course, realistically, most of space is, well, empty space, and it's not practical for any government to claim or defend its entire volume. True, with FTL ships and sensors it becomes more feasible, but there's still just so much space that it would be prohibitive to cover all of it. I tend to think that territory in space would be analogous to territory in preindustrial times -- the maps might show a nation's territory as a big contiguous blob, but in reality the government would only really control the cities (or planets in this case) and the routes connecting them, with their control diminishing the further you get from those. I remember from one of my college courses that there are basically three concentric spheres of progressively diminishing influence: the territory you can regulate directly and continuously, the territory you can effectively project force into intermittently as needed, and the territory beyond that where you pretty much only wield diplomatic or economic influence.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 18 2011, 01:48 AM   #116
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

Christopher wrote: View Post
I remember from one of my college courses that there are basically three concentric spheres of progressively diminishing influence: the territory you can regulate directly and continuously, the territory you can effectively project force into intermittently as needed, and the territory beyond that where you pretty much only wield diplomatic or economic influence.
Which nicely outlines why many powers would feel threatened by the Federation, even if it doesn't act aggressively or imperiously: The simple fact that the Federation, pre-Borg Invasion, was capable of effectively projecting force intermittently into almost anyone's territory save the Klingon and Romulan Empires, even if it chose not to. That along would make many smaller states feel threatened, irrelevant of the Federation's intentions -- and also tells us why the Federation, post-Borg Invasion, feels so threatened by the idea of a Typhon Pact with slipstream. Even if the Pact is not aggressive, the Federation doesn't want to risk the Pact members being able to effectively project force into its territory.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:05 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.