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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old December 11 2011, 11:15 PM   #46
Edit_XYZ
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Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

Sci wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
I found the synopsis for the "voyager' novel to be the most promising - despite it being so dry.

As for the other 3 books - Titan and 2xDRG - they continue the dystopian trend in recent trek lit
You keep abusing that word.
http://hem.passagen.se/replikant/dys...definition.htm

I said dystopian trend - trend toward an imaginary wretched place, the opposite of utopia.


The cold wars in TOS/TNG/DS9 did not feature the federation being kicked in the balls in every dedicated episode.
Or, alternatively, the federation being depicted as treacherous towards its own member species or just plain incompetent at all levels.

See Andor joining the typhon pact (strengthening the typhon pact, after andor leaving the federation weakened said federation) and its evidently NOT friendly relations with the federation they just left (wanting all andorians to leave starfleet - yes, I can see the friendship).

'Disastrous events' at Bajor could mean any damn thing, and not one of those things is even remotely positive for the federation/breaks with the dark storytelling characterising recent trek lit.

The Starships Enterprise and her sister ships have been fighting sinister enemies bent on causing galactic mayhem literally since "Where No Man Has Gone Before" - but only recently were their crews utterly incapable of thinking outside the box - beyond 'dying with dignity', that is.
And only recently did someone far less powerful than some of the beings previously encountered killed 60 billion federation citizens with the utmost ease.


Sci, these blurbs heavily imply that the dystopian trend present in recent trek lit will continue.
If you don't like 'dystopian trend', here's a tvtrope for the trend:
Crapsack World
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...WorldHalfEmpty

Last edited by Edit_XYZ; December 12 2011 at 12:04 AM.
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Old December 12 2011, 01:02 AM   #47
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Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
The cold wars in TOS/TNG/DS9 did not feature the federation being kicked in the balls in every dedicated episode.
Hmm. Well, let's examine the scoreboard so far:

A Singular Destiny: Tholian Assembly plot to use internal strife to divide the Federation; Holy Order of the Kinshaya attacks Klingon Empire. Federation discovers formation of the Typhon Pact before the Pact members wanted it to; Federation thwarts Tholian plot; Typhon Pact forces Kinshaya and Tholians to apologize.

Cost/benefit analysis: Draw.

Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game: Federation slipstream technology stolen by Breen Confederacy with Romulan assistance. Federation successfully prevents launch of Breen slipstream ship or Breen or Typhon Pact retention of Federation technology.

Cost/benefit analysis: Draw. Federation clearly hurt, but the other side is hurt, too. Federation monopoly on slipstream maintained.

Typhon Pact: Seize the Fire: Federation starship Titan discovers rogue Gorn caste plan to commit genocide against an inhabited planet in order to create a replacement hatchery world for the Gorn warrior caste, and. Plan thwarted with help of Gorn technology caste. Federation persuades Gorn warrior caste to allow Gorn dissidents to settle on that world, and to peacefully work to find a replacement hatchery world.

Cost/benefit analysis: Federation benefits, relatively good relationship with Gorn Hegemony maintained.

Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts of Empire: The Federation allied Romulan-Vulcan Unification movement is legalized in the Romulan Star Empire. The Federation-allied Imperial Romulan State is dissolved, but the RSE comes under the control of a moderate Praetor who wants peace with the UFP.

Cost/benefit analysis: Overall win for the UFP, even with loss of Imperial Romulan State.

Typhon Pact: Paths of Disharmony: Tholians exploit pre-existing tensions on Andor by exposing 2260s-era Federation government decision to classify Project Vanguard meta-genome information, inflaming Andorian anger over ongoing reproductive crisis. Andor secedes.

Cost/benefit analysis: Clear loss for the Federation. However, significant Andorian minority does not favor secession, and the Federation government's decision to classify meta-genome information not depicted as undertaken out of malice or callousness towards Andorian crisis.

Typhon Pact: The Struggle Within: The Federation assists the Talarian Republic in discovering Tzenkethi interference in their internal affairs. Talarians decline Khitomer Alliance membership, but note continued good relations with UFP. Federation covertly assists moderate Kinshaya movement, which exposes undue Breen influence on Kinshaya government and results in the sitting Pontifax Maxima being overthrown.

Cost/benefit analysis: Overall Federation win. Some loss with Talarian Republic's decline of Khitomer Alliance membership, but good relations remain. Hostile Kinshaya administration overthrown, hostile Breen government embarrassed and undermined.

Total Score: Federation 5; anti-Federation factions within Typhon Pact: 3.

Doesn't look to me like the Federation's being hit in the balls every episode.

Or, alternatively, the federation being depicted as treacherous towards its own member species or just plain incompetent at all levels.
Grossly unfair characterization of Paths of Disharmony, bordering on dishonest. President Bacco is depicted as having only just discovered the information kept classified by her 2260s counterpart when the secession happens. No treachery whatsoever was involved. Classifying that as incompetence is at best unfair -- the decision made in the 2260s to classify the meta-genome information was made for legitimate reasons, and was made before the Andorians made known their reproductive crisis to the Federation government. The 2260s Federation government had no way of knowing the classification decision would hurt the Andorians, and the 2380s Federation government had no way of knowing what their earlier counterparts had hidden.

See Andor joining the typhon pact (strengthening the typhon pact, after andor leaving the federation weakened said federation)
Strengthening the Typhon Pact is not necessarily a bad thing for the Federation. Strengthening those factions within the Pact that are hostile to the Federation is bad for the UFP; strengthening those factions within the Pact who want peace with the UFP is good for the Federation.

and its evidently NOT friendly relations with the federation they just left (wanting all andorians to leave starfleet - yes, I can see the friendship).
We do not yet know the details of that situation and it is unfair to draw premature conclusions.

'Disastrous events' at Bajor could mean any damn thing, and not one of those things is even remotely positive for the federation/breaks with the dark storytelling characterising recent trek lit.
Almost no story has as its premise something positive for the UFP. "Romulans penetrate Federation defenses for the first time since the 22nd Century" (aka, "Balance of Terror"'s opening premise) is not positive and sounds dark. But "Balance of Terror" ends with the Federation repelling the Romulan attacks and with an acknowledgement that there are good men on the other side, meaning that peace may someday be possible. "Kirk is framed for the assassination of the moderate Klingon Chancellor, and traitors want to assassinate the Federation President suing for peace" sounds awfully dark and un-positive, yet Star Trek VI has one of the most positive and uplifting endings in all of STAR TREK.

Those blurbs tell us the premises of their books. They do not tell us the CONTENTS of those books. They don't tell us how they end. How they END will be what determines whether or not the TREK books are "dark."

The Starships Enterprise and her sister ships have been fighting sinister enemies bent on causing galactic mayhem literally since "Where No Man Has Gone Before" - but only recently were their crews utterly incapable of thinking outside the box
False. "Where No Man Has Gone Before" literally features Spock telling Kirk to kill Gary Mitchell before Mitchell has indicated any desire to harm anyone. "The Cage" literally features Captain Pike realizing that the only way to escape the Talosians is to embrace blind, primitive rage.

STAR TREK certainly has a lot of "we may be enemies today, but we can work this out and have peace." It also has a lot of "kill them now." And if anything, those Typhon Pact blurbs -- talking about the Praetor and Bacco trying to bring about peace -- make it pretty clear that the "we can work this out and have peace" theme will be ongoing.

This is not dystopian. Frankly, this is realistic optimism. I'm sorry to hear that you prefer unrealistic optimism, but nothing presented so far is dystopian or presents a Craptastic World. I'd love to live in the 24th Century Federation -- even the post-Borg Invasion one. It looks like a galaxy with serious problems and the occasional crisis, but it still looks like an optimistic world to me.
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Old December 12 2011, 03:49 AM   #48
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Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

^Agreed with pretty much everything you say. I've been adamant in my defense of the post-Destiny books, and I'm glad to see someone else do it too.
As for positives for the Federation, we do have two in the description for Raise the Dawn, the opening of borders and a UFP/Romulan joint exploration mission, and a minus for the anti-UFP Pact members, the failure to develop slip-stream.
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Old December 12 2011, 08:52 AM   #49
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Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

Sci wrote: View Post
those Typhon Pact blurbs -- talking about the Praetor and Bacco trying to bring about peace -- make it pretty clear that the "we can work this out and have peace" theme will be ongoing.
Agreed. I am amazed when ST fans call for all-out war stories, when I'd much prefer exploration stories - but the "Typhon Pact" is more about posturing for power/influence, which is rather what we saw Klingons, Gorn and Romulans doing in TOS, Cardassians doing in TNG, The Dominion doing in DS9, and the Kazon, Borg and Species 8472 doing in VOY.

I see no Dystopia here.
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Old December 12 2011, 08:53 AM   #50
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Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

Sci wrote: View Post
j3067 wrote: View Post
I'll be waiting for the spoilers for any DRG3 book. It will take a lot for me to consider one of his books again after Rough Turds of Empire.
How did you feel about his previous books?

- The 34th Rule (with Armin Shimmerman)
- Mission: Gamma - Twilight
- The Lost Era: Serpents Among the Ruins
- The Dominion: Olympus Descending (from Worlds of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Vol. III)
- "Iron and Sacrifice" (from Tales from the Captain's Table)
- Crucible: Provenance of Shadows
- Crucible: The Fire and the Rose
- Crucible: The Star to Every Wandering
- Myriad Universes: The Embrace of Cold Architects
One “aw $h!t” wipes out tenattaboys” is how I feel.
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Old December 12 2011, 09:07 AM   #51
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Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

j3067 wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
j3067 wrote: View Post
I'll be waiting for the spoilers for any DRG3 book. It will take a lot for me to consider one of his books again after Rough Turds of Empire.
How did you feel about his previous books?

- The 34th Rule (with Armin Shimmerman)
- Mission: Gamma - Twilight
- The Lost Era: Serpents Among the Ruins
- The Dominion: Olympus Descending (from Worlds of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Vol. III)
- "Iron and Sacrifice" (from Tales from the Captain's Table)
- Crucible: Provenance of Shadows
- Crucible: The Fire and the Rose
- Crucible: The Star to Every Wandering
- Myriad Universes: The Embrace of Cold Architects
One “aw $h!t” wipes out tenattaboys” is how I feel.
One unenjoyable work invalidates ten enjoyable works?

Wow. God help the man who works for you and has one day!
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Old December 12 2011, 09:39 AM   #52
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Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

On another note, I really hope the situation with Vaughn is resolved in these two books. I really enjoyed his character, and would hate to see his fate be nothing more then rotting away as a vegetable.
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Old December 12 2011, 10:00 AM   #53
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Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

Sci

You forgot about Destiny - 3 books, the greatest event in trek lit from the last few years:
60 billion federation citizens dead. 50% of starfleet destroyed.
Genocide porn.
The tone of these books makes battlestar galactica's look positively cheery.
As you are, apparently, counting - these are 3 immense 'LOSS LOSS LOSS' for the federation.

A singular destiny - draw? The formation of the adversarial typhon pact was counterbalanced by what, exactly?
And apologising doesn't bring back the dead/repair the damage the tholians and kinshaya have already done.

Zero sum game - it is directly established there is a cold war between the typhon pact and the federation (as in, no peaceful competition, which was an alternative the previous book established).
It is directly established the romulans have cloaking tech that enables them to go anywhere within the federation undetected, giving them a gigantic strategical advantage - for example: espionage missions, devastating first strike capabilities, etc.
It is directly established starfleet is in massive inferiority to the typhon pact and the only thing preventing the federation from being overrun in 6 months is slip-stream.
Draw? The destruction of that federation shipbuilding facility is the least of its problems.
Bashir is depicted horribly out of character.

Seize the fire - didn't read this book.

Rough beasts of empire - IRS - half the romulan empire - (in formerly friendly relations with the federation) joins the typhon pact AKA not only is the federation weakened, the typhon pact is strenghtened.
Legalising the unification movement has the potential to result in vulcan seceding from the federation.
Win? Losing IRS as an ally, with little to counterbalance such a massive loss, is 'win'? Really?
Sisko and Spock depicted horribly out of character.

Paths of disharmony
- the andorians decided to leave the federation in a democratic referendum.
In the current blurbs, it's established that andor joined the typhon pact, which is in a state of cold war with the federation - meaning that andor, far from being sympathetic to the federation or even neutral, chooses, of its own accord, to be an enemy of the federation.

In the book, it was directly established that the federation had the means to save the andorian species - the taurus reach data.
It was directly established in the book that Akaar and others within starfleet/the federation knew of the existence of the taurus reach data and its potential from the beginning.
This means the federation/starfleet did betray the andorians, by not giving them the data the existence of their species depended on.
It also means the federation/starfleet did prove incompetent
by not using the data to develop defenses against the borg, despite the fact that they knew their current capabilities were a joke.

The struggle within
- whatever happened with the kinshaya did not in the least change the cold war status between the federation and the typhon pact - as the new blurbs prove.
Meaning the balance of power most definitely did not shift in favor of the pro-peace faction withing the typhon pact - as the book advertised.


Romulans penetrate Federation defenses for the first time since the 22nd Century" (aka, "Balance of Terror"'s opening premise) is not positive and sounds dark. But "Balance of Terror" ends with the Federation repelling the Romulan attacks and with an acknowledgement that there are good men on the other side, meaning that peace may someday be possible.
That was only one episode (as opposed to most of recent trek lit) - and it was quite dark, by TOS standards.
Plus, in it the federation/starfleet was not depicted as a bunch of incompetents whose actions have as excuses only a medieval attitude toward science or some as yet uninvented/nonsensical moral rules.


The Starships Enterprise and her sister ships have been fighting sinister enemies bent on causing galactic mayhem literally since "Where No Man Has Gone Before" - but only recently were their crews utterly incapable of thinking outside the box - beyond 'dying with dignity', that is.
And only recently did someone far less powerful than some of the beings previously encountered killed 60 billion federation citizens with the utmost ease.
False. "Where No Man Has Gone Before" literally features Spock telling Kirk to kill Gary Mitchell before Mitchell has indicated any desire to harm anyone. "The Cage" literally features Captain Pike realizing that the only way to escape the Talosians is to embrace blind, primitive rage.
And this negates exacly what from my previous post? Perhaps you think 'thinking outside the box' includes only refined, technobabble solutions?


And if anything, those Typhon Pact blurbs -- talking about the Praetor and Bacco trying to bring about peace -- make it pretty clear that the "we can work this out and have peace" theme will be ongoing.
The DRG3 2nd blurb explicitly says the attempts to bring 'peace' failed, and, by the time of the second DRG3 book, said leaders are desperately trying to prevent a shooting war (as in, they are having trouble even maintaining the cold war status).
Plus - I see how much support that moderate romulan praetor (installed by the federation-hating tzenkethi, masters of manipulation and prediction, to serve their interest) has. How much real power the pro-peace faction within the typhon pact has.

Those blurbs tell us the premises of their books. They do not tell us the CONTENTS of those books. They don't tell us how they end. How they END will be what determines whether or not the TREK books are "dark."
No, Sci. What the books contain (not merely their end) determines whether they will be dark.
For example - 3 pages worth of feel-good prose and some really unappropiate jokes at the end do not erase 3 books worth of unrelenting darkness/Crapsack World in 'Destiny'.
And 'disastrous events' - well, you trying to present it as something positive is...well, less than credible.

The blurbs (minus the voyager one) make it pretty clear that the books will continue to focus on military science fiction/Crapsack World type story lines; that the federation will continue to be depicted as a doormat for whomever feels like trampling upon it, managing to escape complete destruction but losing credibility/influence with each book.

Last edited by Edit_XYZ; December 12 2011 at 11:19 AM.
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Old December 12 2011, 10:26 AM   #54
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Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

Sci wrote: View Post
Dimesdan wrote: View Post
^I suspect one needs to go out in the cold Washington air and realise that one shouldn't get so worked up about such trivial things.
Eh, it's not that cold yet. It's just starting to get chilly -- I noticed frost on the ground for the first time this week -- but not cold. I'm from Ohio -- Washington almost never gets all that cold by my standards.
It's been unusually mild recently around here, yes the North and Scotland have had some snow and wind, but we've had one day of frost down these parts.

But that's besides the point, you're really not going to persuade someone who already thinks, rightly or wrongly interpreted the last few years worth of novels as dis-utopic. It's an act in futility on both sides and because beauty, art and pretty much everything else is in the eye of the beholder, to be honest, neither of you are right, nor wrong as that's how you've interpreted it from the source material.
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Old December 12 2011, 11:29 AM   #55
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Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
In the current blurbs, it's established that andor joined the typhon pact
If you believe that pre-release blurbs establish anything, then you haven't read enough blurbs.
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Old December 12 2011, 03:37 PM   #56
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Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

Sci wrote: View Post
Hmm. Well, let's examine the scoreboard so far:

A Singular Destiny: Tholian Assembly plot to use internal strife to divide the Federation; Holy Order of the Kinshaya attacks Klingon Empire. Federation discovers formation of the Typhon Pact before the Pact members wanted it to; Federation thwarts Tholian plot; Typhon Pact forces Kinshaya and Tholians to apologize.

Cost/benefit analysis: Draw.

Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game: Federation slipstream technology stolen by Breen Confederacy with Romulan assistance. Federation successfully prevents launch of Breen slipstream ship or Breen or Typhon Pact retention of Federation technology.

Cost/benefit analysis: Draw. Federation clearly hurt, but the other side is hurt, too. Federation monopoly on slipstream maintained.

Typhon Pact: Seize the Fire: Federation starship Titan discovers rogue Gorn caste plan to commit genocide against an inhabited planet in order to create a replacement hatchery world for the Gorn warrior caste, and. Plan thwarted with help of Gorn technology caste. Federation persuades Gorn warrior caste to allow Gorn dissidents to settle on that world, and to peacefully work to find a replacement hatchery world.

Cost/benefit analysis: Federation benefits, relatively good relationship with Gorn Hegemony maintained.

Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts of Empire: The Federation allied Romulan-Vulcan Unification movement is legalized in the Romulan Star Empire. The Federation-allied Imperial Romulan State is dissolved, but the RSE comes under the control of a moderate Praetor who wants peace with the UFP.

Cost/benefit analysis: Overall win for the UFP, even with loss of Imperial Romulan State.

Typhon Pact: Paths of Disharmony: Tholians exploit pre-existing tensions on Andor by exposing 2260s-era Federation government decision to classify Project Vanguard meta-genome information, inflaming Andorian anger over ongoing reproductive crisis. Andor secedes.

Cost/benefit analysis: Clear loss for the Federation. However, significant Andorian minority does not favor secession, and the Federation government's decision to classify meta-genome information not depicted as undertaken out of malice or callousness towards Andorian crisis.

Typhon Pact: The Struggle Within: The Federation assists the Talarian Republic in discovering Tzenkethi interference in their internal affairs. Talarians decline Khitomer Alliance membership, but note continued good relations with UFP. Federation covertly assists moderate Kinshaya movement, which exposes undue Breen influence on Kinshaya government and results in the sitting Pontifax Maxima being overthrown.

Cost/benefit analysis: Overall Federation win. Some loss with Talarian Republic's decline of Khitomer Alliance membership, but good relations remain. Hostile Kinshaya administration overthrown, hostile Breen government embarrassed and undermined.

Total Score: Federation 5; anti-Federation factions within Typhon Pact: 3.

Doesn't look to me like the Federation's being hit in the balls every episode.
Great analysis, Sci, thank you.

I've mentioned before that one of the reasons I love the Destiny trilogy is that through its harrowing plot it aimed to be the ultimate challenge -- not only to the Federation within the story, but to us as readers, to the fans. It transcended its own plot to challenge the ideological foundations of the Trek universe and that universe's appeal to us readers - and when I say challenge, I don't mean with intent to destroy them, but to push them through the fire and out the other side. It was, in my mind, a calculated move that wasn't intended to "break" Trek's optimism but to prove its ultimate correctness. As The Sisko says, it's easy to be a saint in paradise. Destiny came closer to trashing paradise than ever before, only to affirm - through Hernandez' reawakening, primarily (because that was the heart of the story), but also the spirit of Dax, Riker, etc - that the Federation heroes can be saints regardless. Destiny dared to be provocative by pushing our expectations for optimistic Trek to the limit, almost to the breaking point, only to end with the "human spirit" triumphing regardless. Having Hernandez save the Federation, Borg and Caeliar all, by rediscovering her courage, her compassion, her humanity after centuries of having them worn down.

Now, what Mack did there was a risk, because that does involve discarding some of the straightforward optimism on the level of the setting, if not the theme - ie, it means wrecking paradise a bit. I understand that this will alienate some fans. But through paradise getting trashed we saw the ultimate reaffirmation of the saint - and it is the saint that is the truly important part, the real soul of Trek's message. The true meaning of Trekmas, children, is not the nicely wrapped gifts but the kindness and spirit and effort that went into making them .

Destiny was almost a deconstruction, only it then turned around and reinforced what it was supposedly deconstructing. Now, again, I understand why that didn't work for some people - I think, as do a lot of others, apparently, that Mack calculated it perfectly, but naturally not everyone will agree. Some people will think it a misfire that crafts an imbalance in favour of the destruction and angst that the plot entails. I would never suggest that this opinion is illegitimate, but I do think it's an unfortunate reading that misses what is, to me, the triumph of the trilogy.

As for the Typhon Pact , if Destiny was a odd deconstruction that ended up stripping Trek's message to its starkest form in order to affirm it, then the Typhon Pact is an interesting reconstruction. We're through that fire, as I said, and indeed we are now on the other side. And since the message was reaffirmed in the fire, where do we go from here? It can't stay stark and stripped-down, because Destiny is a one-off, the ultimate test. Now we need to put the meat back on the bone, boost the Federation spirit again. So for one thing we have the Federation members themselves realizing they need to reaffirm - hence the plots of A Singular Destiny and Losing the Peace. And, on top of that, we show the peoples and races who didn't "get it" up until now...suddenly getting it. The Pact is a rebuild of Trek's message of optimism, unity and diversity; this time, it's not just the heroes and their allies who get to enjoy those gifts, it's their rivals and even those who would call them enemy. I'd say the Pact is the triumph of the Federation; it's ideas and hope of strength through mutual support and respect are finally being embraced by known space in its entirety.

It's not easy for the Federation at the moment, but I simply can't see the current post-Destiny line as pessimistic. If the Pact arc ends in another all-out war I'll be very, very annoyed -- but I've seen no indication that the writers intend anything of the sort. They're just telling interesting and complex stories about the political and social strain that comes through rapid change and conflicting perspectives. They're not writing a silly "everyone links arms and dances round and about the hills" optimism, because that's just not realistic. But it certainly doesn't mean they're throwing obstacles at the heroes for the sole purpose of making them miserable. This is a time of rebuilding, in more ways than one; I think we as readers should embrace that.
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Old December 12 2011, 04:28 PM   #57
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Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

I'm looking forward to these books. And it looks as though Plagues of Night deals with the Ascendants as in Raise the Dawn, Picard and Sisko are dealing with Ro, not Kira. I have also been thinking that although the set-up for the Ascendants storyline might have been in 2377, the Ascendants might not have been ready for another four years. Wars do take a long time to plan after all.
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Old December 12 2011, 04:43 PM   #58
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Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Sci

You forgot about Destiny - 3 books, the greatest event in trek lit from the last few years:
60 billion federation citizens dead. 50% of starfleet destroyed.
Genocide porn.
The tone of these books makes battlestar galactica's look positively cheery.
As you are, apparently, counting - these are 3 immense 'LOSS LOSS LOSS' for the federation.
You're shifting the goal posts now. We were talking about previous depictions of cold wars in Star Trek, and you claimed that the Federation/Typhon Pact cold war is worse than the one seen on TV between the Federation and Klingons, or its Romulan and Dominion counterparts, because on TV, the Federation wasn't being "kicked in the balls." Thus, Destiny is irrelevant to the question, since it takes place before the formation of the Typhon Pact and does not involve any Federation/Typhon Pact cold war.

Also, it's not genocide porn, and that terms if frankly offensive. Pornography is about trying to titillate, to glorify one particular aspect of life above others. In no way does the Destiny trilogy glorify or treat as a good thing genocide, which is what that phrase implies. I'm sorry if you didn't like Destiny, but to accuse it of glorifying genocide is rude at best and dishonest and offensive at worst.

A singular destiny - draw? The formation of the adversarial typhon pact
There you go again with the mindset that the Pact is inherently adversarial, that the existence of the Pact must inherently represent a loss for the Federation rather than only representing a loss for the UFP if hostile factions assume power in the Pact. That's a very ethnocentric POV.

was counterbalanced by what, exactly?
Doesn't need to be counterbalanced by anything. The formation of the Typhon Pact is neither a gain nor a loss for the Federation.

And apologising doesn't bring back the dead/repair the damage the tholians and kinshaya have already done.
1. The Tholians' damage was superficial and reversed quite easily, and its perpetrators by Starfleet and Federation police departments.

2. No, it does not bring back the Klingon dead. Neither would a Klingon apology bring back all the Kinshaya who died when the Klingons committed genocide by annihilating the Kinshaya homeworld. Sometimes in international relations, two cultures have to set mutual atrocities committed between themselves aside and move forward if they want a better future for both of themselves.

Zero sum game - it is directly established there is a cold war between the typhon pact and the federation (as in, no peaceful competition, which was an alternative the previous book established).
Yes, Zero Sum Game -- and do recall that in proper English grammar, novel titles are italicized, not bolded -- establishes that anti-Federation factions have achieved enough influence within the Pact that a de facto state of cold war has been achieved. Given as how I was literally keeping score in my previous post, I considered that to be a given.

It is directly established the romulans have cloaking tech that enables them to go anywhere within the federation undetected, giving them a gigantic strategical advantage - for example: espionage missions, devastating first strike capabilities, etc.
Fair enough! I'd forgotten about the scene that establishes that the Romulans have developed phase cloak technology -- partially because the UFP certainly takes it in stride and doesn't seem to regard it as being as big of a security threat as losing its monopoly on slipstream. Possibly because the Federation had literally developed phase technology 30 years beforehand. But we'll up anti-UFP Typhon Pact score from 3 to 3.5. (Why 3.5? Beyond the fact that it's questionable how big a threat a 30-year-old technology is, because the new moderate Romulan government generally doesn't seem interested in that kind of stuff.)

It is directly established starfleet is in massive inferiority to the typhon pact and the only thing preventing the federation from being overrun in 6 months is slip-stream.
Uh, no, it's not.

Bashir is depicted horribly out of character.
Yes, and the price of tea in China is just terrible, isn't it?

Whether or not you think Bashir was well-written has nothing to do with whether or not Zero Sum Game can be fairly said to depict the Federation as being kicked in the balls.

Seize the fire - didn't read this book.
I didn't, either, but since I wanted to evaluate your claim that the Federation was getting "kicked in the balls" in every episode dealing with the UFP/Typhon Pact cold war, I looked up its synopsis. I am happy to report that in no way is it reasonable to describe its events as "getting kicked in the balls."

Rough beasts of empire - IRS - half the romulan empire - (in formerly friendly relations with the federation) joins the typhon pact
Yes -- and then the RSE is taken over by a new government that's about as friendly towards the UFP as Donatra was. So from a purely utilitarian POV, really, either result benefits the Federation.

Unless you think that it's best for the Federation when every other culture is broken and divided and unable to function. But that's Henry Kissinger realpolitick thinking -- hardly the sort of bright, optimistic message a Star Trek novel should be sending!

Legalising the unification movement has the potential to result in vulcan seceding from the federation.
Maybe. It also has the potential to result in Romulus requesting to join the Federation. And since it's clear that Spock is still loyal to the Federation and regularly passes them information, I'd consider the possibility of Vulcan seceding as a result of the Unification movement to be a small but acceptable risk for the sake of having a friendly Romulan faction.

Sisko and Spock depicted horribly out of character.
Again, your opinion on how well-written the characters are is irrelevant to whether or not the Federation is "kicked in the balls" in every story about the UFP/Typhon Pact relationship.

Paths of disharmony - the andorians decided to leave the federation in a democratic referendum.
In the current blurbs, it's established that andor joined the typhon pact,
1. If you've read enough books, you know full well you cannot rely on blurbs to give you accurate details about the contents of a book. Blurbs are like movie trailers -- they're there to get you to read the book, but not always reliable.

2. If Andor joins the Typhon Pact? That's not in Paths of Disharmony. If it happens, it will happen in a book that has yet to be published. I was evaluating the events of Paths of Disharmony, not a book I literally cannot read yet.

which is in a state of cold war with the federation - meaning that andor, far from being sympathetic to the federation or even neutral, chooses, of its own accord, to be an enemy of the federation.
You have a very "us vs. them" mindset when it comes to the UFP, don't you? Very George W. Bush. "You're either with us, or you're against us."

What if the new Andorian Presider's attitude is more, "You know, I'm pissed at the UFP, but the Typhon Pact needs more moderate voices. If we join the Pact, we can veto any factions in the Pact that are pushing for hostilities with the Federation while also strengthening the Pact and making Andor more secure. We'll make the Pact, the Federation, and Andor all more stable and secure that way. Let's do it."

What if the Andorian goal is literally to push the Typhon Pact into a less hostile direction and end the cold war that way? It's not like it's in Andor's best interests to have hostilities commence between the Pact and the UFP when Andor's just a few lightyears from Earth. If Andor joins the Pact, it's in Andor's best interests to push it into a moderate, peaceful direction -- not to be an enemy.

In the book, it was directly established that the federation had the means to save the andorian species - the taurus reach data.
It was directly established in the book that Akaar and others within starfleet/the federation knew of the existence of the taurus reach data and its potential from the beginning.
No, it was not. If you'll recall, Crusher's attempts to research the data being given to her by an Andorian doctor who was being fed Taurus meta-genome (TMG) info by the Tholians led to a Federation classified computer system AI realizing that someone was looking up TMG info. That AI had TMG data removed from a repository on Luna and delivered to Admiral Akaar. Akaar then gave the information to President Bacco. And then, just a few hours later, the Tholians revealed the info themselves, and Andor began the process of secession.

Bacco and Akaar had literally only just gotten the info and realized its potential to help the Andorians when the shit went down.

The struggle within - whatever happened with the kinshaya did not in the least change the cold war status between the federation and the typhon pact
"In the least?" Really? The new blurbs feature joint Federation/Romulan exploration missions. Sounds like things may have changed a little bit to me.

And, again, the question is not, "Did this book BRING GALACTIC PEACE AND COOKIES TO EVERYONE?" The question is, "Is the Federation being kicked in the balls in every UFP/Pact story?"

The answer for The Struggle Within is: No.

The Starships Enterprise and her sister ships have been fighting sinister enemies bent on causing galactic mayhem literally since "Where No Man Has Gone Before" - but only recently were their crews utterly incapable of thinking outside the box - beyond 'dying with dignity', that is.
And only recently did someone far less powerful than some of the beings previously encountered killed 60 billion federation citizens with the utmost ease.
And this negates exacly what from my previous post?
First off, you're not giving the full context of that particular aspect of the debate.

Full context:

Sci wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
a new (and at the same time old) enemy causing mayhem in the galaxy (again, expressly mentioned in the first titan blurb, only alluded to in the current one),
Oh, big fucking deal. That line could mean any damn thing, and it's no more evidence of dystopianism than similar blurbs for the Gateways crossover were. The Starships Enterprise and her sister ships have been fighting sinister enemies bent on causing galactic mayhem literally since "Where No Man Has Gone Before" -- and that's assuming, again, that that blurb isn't an exaggeration of some sort.
The Starships Enterprise and her sister ships have been fighting sinister enemies bent on causing galactic mayhem literally since "Where No Man Has Gone Before" - but only recently were their crews utterly incapable of thinking outside the box
False. "Where No Man Has Gone Before" literally features Spock telling Kirk to kill Gary Mitchell before Mitchell has indicated any desire to harm anyone. "The Cage" literally features Captain Pike realizing that the only way to escape the Talosians is to embrace blind, primitive rage.

STAR TREK certainly has a lot of "we may be enemies today, but we can work this out and have peace." It also has a lot of "kill them now." And if anything, those Typhon Pact blurbs -- talking about the Praetor and Bacco trying to bring about peace -- make it pretty clear that the "we can work this out and have peace" theme will be ongoing.
In other words: In response to the Titan blurb mentioning a new galactic menace, you tried to claim that this is something new and dystopian in Star Trek fiction. I pointed out that Star Trek has featured the crews fighting galactic menaces since the beginning. You seemed to be complaining about them fighting bad guys instead of having peaceful relationships, and I pointed out that almost from the first episode, they've been fighting bad guys and not cultivating peaceful relationships. I'm sorry, but Spock deciding to kill Gary Mitchell right then and there is not "thinking outside the box" -- that's very much thinking inside the box, by reacting to a new development as a threat instead of an opportunity. (As it turns out, Spock was right about Mitchell, sure -- but what about Dehner?)

And if anything, those Typhon Pact blurbs -- talking about the Praetor and Bacco trying to bring about peace -- make it pretty clear that the "we can work this out and have peace" theme will be ongoing.
The DRG3 2nd blurb explicitly says the attempts to bring 'peace' failed, and, by the time of the second DRG3 book, said leaders are desperately trying to prevent a shooting war
Yes, in the same sense that the attempt to bring about a Federation/Klingon peace treaty had failed during the scene immediately after Kirk was arrested in Star Trek VI. Do recall that this blurb is advertising the second half of a single story, so naturally it's going to advertise the development that happens in the first half to give the second half a sense of danger and of high stakes. It's not going to tell us the complete story about where things end.

If you were to break up Star Trek VI, you might easily make a blurb for a second half that says, "The Klingon Chancellor is dead, assassinated by Starfleet officers while suing for peace. Captain Kirk has been arrested, and Captain Spock must search for a traitor aboard the Enterprise." Sounds pretty dark, doesn't it? You might even claim that such a blurb "explicitly says that attempts to bring about peace have failed." But, of course, Star Trek VI ends with a Federation/Klingon peace treaty in spite of the bad things that happen in the middle of the story. So we shouldn't assume anything until we get to the end of Raise the Dawn, 'kay?

Plus - I see how much support that moderate romulan praetor (installed by the federation-hating tzenkethi, masters of manipulation and prediction, to serve their interest) has. How much real power the pro-peace faction within the typhon pact has.
No, you don't. There's been nothing published one way or the other establishing how much power the new Praetor really has -- except insofar as literally all her political enemies were manipulated into defeat before she took office.

And remember, the Tzenkethi's only real interest is stability, not war.

Those blurbs tell us the premises of their books. They do not tell us the CONTENTS of those books. They don't tell us how they end. How they END will be what determines whether or not the TREK books are "dark."
No, Sci. What the books contain (not merely their end) determines whether they will be dark.
So a book that begins in tragedy but ends in happiness does not count as a comedy in the classical sense of the term, to you? It's still a tragedy, no matter what else happens in it?

But either way -- those blurbs don't really tell us those books' contents.

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Great analysis, Sci, thank you.
Thank you much.

Now, what Mack did there was a risk, because that does involve discarding some of the straightforward optimism on the level of the setting, if not the theme - ie, it means wrecking paradise a bit. I understand that this will alienate some fans. But through paradise getting trashed we saw the ultimate reaffirmation of the saint - and it is the saint that is the truly important part, the real soul of Trek's message. The true meaning of Trekmas, children, is not the nicely wrapped gifts but the kindness and spirit and effort that went into making them .
Exactly! Frankly, I think that their reaction to Destiny proves that some fans weren't really into Trek for its depiction of a human spirit that stays true to its ideals even in the face of mortality, that embraces compassion over strife, unity over division, freedom over tyranny. They liked Star Trek because it depicted a future in which humanity was rich and powerful, and all of its enemies were weaker. Suddenly, Destiny depicts humanity as no longer being as rich and as powerful, and then Typhon Pact depicts others as being just as rich and powerful, and that's unacceptable. To them, Star Trek's optimism lay in its power fantasies, not in its moral vision -- take away the power fantasy of humanity as the undefeatable superpower, and suddenly Trek loses its appeal. They liked the Trekmas presents more than the spirit that went into making them.
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Old December 12 2011, 04:46 PM   #59
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Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

If anything, I think the only real flaw of the Typhon Pact "quasi-arc/setting/timeframe/whatever" is focusing too much on the Pact and not enough on the expanding Khitomer Alliance --has there been any development at all on the Ferengi and Cardassian fronts? I want to see the Federation and its allies growing stronger and closer.

(And saying that Unification will lead to Vulcan seceeding from the UFP is not entirely logical; it could equally lead to the Romulan Empire forging closer bonds with the UFP/Khitomer Alliance, especially with Praetor Kamemor in power [she seems to acknowledge that the Romulan Way is not necessarily the best way].)
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Old December 12 2011, 04:51 PM   #60
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Re: New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide

Cybersnark wrote: View Post
If anything, I think the only real flaw of the Typhon Pact "quasi-arc/setting/timeframe/whatever" is focusing too much on the Pact and not enough on the expanding Khitomer Alliance --has there been any development at all on the Ferengi and Cardassian fronts?
Typhon Pact: The Struggle Within established that the Cardassian Union and Ferengi Alliance have formally joined the expanded Khitomer Alliance.
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