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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old March 21 2012, 04:53 PM   #1336
Guy Gardener
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Lord Manitou wrote: View Post
I didn't doubt a moment B'Ellana would live through her wake-dream ordeal in sick-bay. With the doctor and Tom and the captain watching every moment. There she meets Kayless and the 'first' Klingon and she has another argument with her mother. It's one of the few shows that seems so un-immaginative.
In "Tinker, Tailor, Doctor,Spy the doctor asks for more power and sub-programs for his already affluent program. This he receives but only because of Janeway's generosity.
You know how B'Elanna died in faces?

And they replaced her with a duplicate?

And never mentioned it again?

Just saying.

They could have replaced her again easy.

And since she was just a Frankenstein's monster science experiment, isn't it remarkable that she thought that she had a soul?

So precious.

I mean, since she didn't have a soul, and her children wouldn't have souls, everyone knew during that episode, that she was just dreaming in a near death state, which is all they were doing in flatliners, getting high...Till everything went horribly wrong with that punk kid ghost wailing on Jack Baur.

So.

Barge of the Dead was all about B'Elanna tripping balls.

Nothing else.
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Old March 21 2012, 05:44 PM   #1337
TenLubak
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Re: Does It Get Better???

No, I think Star Trek Voyager is the worst Star Trek, because there is nothing new here. It is during the mid nineties where Star Trek had run out of gas , people were sick of it, and all the ideas (well most of em are recycled from TOS TNG, or other works outside of Trek). Throw in the B cast of actors, and boring as hell dialgouge, and music, and what you get is a flavorless, play it so safe that its boring generic shell of Star Trek The Next Generation. Only the aliens are way uglier with more rubber, there is nothing that as fan of the Star Trek Universe I care about since there are out in bum kucf space. It was made to make a dollar or two and I suppose it suceeded at that. The technobabble is at the extreme here, and there is alot of Treks own in universe 'science' rules that are totally ignored. Characters actions on what they would do totally are inconsistent with what they did last year , or last month, or even 4 years ago. So there's that. And there's that clown ass-jerk Neelix. He the most selfish ugly jerk in Star Trek. No wonder everyone else hates him. I mean he stayed on the ship after his child girlfriend died, and i suppose hes there because he doesnt have an friends anyway, and well its a good deal for him they give him all lifes essentials to live in luxury and provides the crew with well his amatuer cooking which sucks, his blabbering about insignificant thinks at totally inapporiate times, and his overall lack of knowledge about anything relevant.

The show is a disapointment for sure. Where as Deep Space had great writing, this one did not.


It took me about 15 years to get around to watching many of the episodes thinking theres got to be some good ones, there are, but there aren't many great ones, and in fact not on Voyager episode jumps out at me in my head as a wow. Maybe that one where the guy in the black suit uses Janeway and plays classical music throughout the ship, but over all, its mostly a show about Harry Kim and Tom Paris racing around in a Delta Flyer hotrod they built, wasting power on the holodeck so it cause a problem, and um plundering worlds, causing problems for the aliens, and becoming known to delta quad races as the "ship of death".

And yeah thats what they called Voyager "ship of death". Beause thier captain makes self abosorbed choices where her singular goal is to get her crew home at ANY cost. What a crazy woman. She really could have destroyed the whole galaxy, time line, and really just made a big mess of creation to get a her crew home, which SHE stranded by blowing up the Caretaker ,WHICH could have sent them home! Because she failed to consider any other alternative, actually i'm not sure she didn't get stranded out there on purpose. Can any one else think of any alternatives to the delmema presented to Janeway at the end of CAretaker? My nephew in 5th grade had about 6 or 7. But Janeway, A STAR FLEET captain- she did not.


Man i didnt realize how much i disliked this show. And when it got bad ratings what was the solution, add a borg with HUGE boobs and have her walk around in skin tight outfits. Not better writing, planning the series more than 5 mins ahead of time, no the solution- boobs.

Yea...

Well at least Tim Russ did an excellent job with making Tuvok- the most boring character on paper- the most interesting on in the show.


Its still better than most other shows on Tv- but just barely.
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Last edited by TenLubak; March 21 2012 at 05:44 PM. Reason: seven of nine
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Old March 21 2012, 08:57 PM   #1338
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Janeway had no choice, because the Array was not an option. It would've taken hours to get the Array running to send them home, and by then Kazon reinforcements would've gotten there and overwhelmed them.

And no, they couldn't use their cobalt explosive torpedoes on the Kazon ships there because that wouldn't stop the reinforcements AND they'd have lost the only thing they had to blow up the Array with.
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Old March 21 2012, 10:06 PM   #1339
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Re: Does It Get Better???

8/10 seems like a very high score for "Riddles". I actually often find it really cringeworthy when actors act against the type they've been playing......whenever Brent Spiner played Lore/characters from Masks whatever, I found it excruciating to watch. Something similar happened with Tim Russ in "Riddles". I think "Riddles" and "Alice" go fairly well together - pretty bland but watchable episodes, but overall there's just a real lack of ambition there, moreso with "Alice".
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Old March 21 2012, 10:22 PM   #1340
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Jabin had to be bluffing about reinforcements, and Neelix knew it, if anyone had bothered to ask him, just like he knew that any Kazon who sends out a distress signal is seen as weak and ripe for annexation by another sect in Initiations.

If Jabin asked for help, he'd lose Ocampa and the Array to a stronger Maje.

Janeway didn't understand her enemy and was making bad decisions predicated on poor comprehension of the field of play.
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Old March 21 2012, 11:01 PM   #1341
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Re: Does It Get Better???

As an Electrical Engineer, the cloaking "frequency" in the frosting of the cake was utter and complete bullshit. At least make an effort to try and give me pseudoscience/treknobabble, don't try to pass off sugary sweets as a frequency.

Star Trek is generally good at making their science sound believable in the realm of "you know its fake, so go along with it". Bad stuff like that though takes me out of it.
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Old March 22 2012, 01:50 AM   #1342
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Jabin had to be bluffing about reinforcements, and Neelix knew it, if anyone had bothered to ask him, just like he knew that any Kazon who sends out a distress signal is seen as weak and ripe for annexation by another sect in Initiations.

If Jabin asked for help, he'd lose Ocampa and the Array to a stronger Maje.

Janeway didn't understand her enemy and was making bad decisions predicated on poor comprehension of the field of play.
I don't think that the other Kazon in Jabin's own group would think he was weak for asking for help against superior invaders from the other side of the Galaxy...
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Old March 22 2012, 02:03 AM   #1343
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Yeah they would,

But Jabin was a fool if he didn't take everything he had after Janeway.

To call for reinforcements I would be assuming (bah!) that he was calling on those outside h is immediate influence, ie a nearby sect he assumed (BAH!) that he could trust, which he probably couldn't.

In that fight jabin had two shuttles, and a cityship.

Later Voyager survived a confrontation with 20 cityships.

The best he could hope for to come from Ocampa (Quickly) would be a few more shuttles.
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Old March 22 2012, 03:42 AM   #1344
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Re: Does It Get Better???

I was reading an episode review by one of the reviewers for this site, and something really stuck out to me:

"Do Voyager's lazy, recycle-happy writers not remember those events? Or do they simply wish us to pretend they never happened, so they can swipe some of the concepts and even some of the dialogue for later episodes? I'd accuse them of stealing the basic concept of "Riddles" from Original Trek's "This Side Of Paradise," in which Spock loses his inhibitions, plus "The Changeling," in which Uhura loses her memories because of an alien scan...but that can't be the case because most of the current writing staff swears they never watched and never liked Real Trek. If they were smart enough to be deliberately borrowing from it, Voyager would be a much better series. Probably they just stole this idea from Regarding Henry instead.

I'm not going to deny that I enjoyed this episode while watching it; I did, I thought the performances were terrific, and the directing was both innovative and effective. But it's impossible to think about or be moved by these characters for longer than the 40-some minutes of the show, because even without a typical Trek reset button ending, we can be sure that they will return to square one every week, without incorporating anything they've learned or felt unless they happen to be the resident Borg boob - I mean babe.

Why should I believe Tuvok or Neelix, or Janeway or Chakotay or Paris or Torres or any of the rest of them, will learn and grow, when all previous canon on this series seems to get erased on a weekly basis? They're going to be the first crew ever to explore an alien quadrant and come home having learned exactly nothing. So that's what this series is worth."

Even though this isn't something I've discussed to great lengths in my reviews, it's something that has bothered me quite a bit. It's not realistic that important events and character development would all be completely forgotten by the next week.

I remember back to a season 4 DS9 episode called Hippocratic Oath where O'Brien and Bashir encountered a group of rogue (?) Jem'Hadar. Bashir tried to create an antidote to cure of them of their addiction to Ketracel White. Had he been successful it could have completely changed the course of events that followed. But before Bashir was able to finish his research O'Brien destroyed it because he needed to get Bashir to come with him. IMO, what O'Brien did was absolutely unforgivable, and I think Bashir might have felt similarly. Realistically this should have had a huge impact upon their friendship, but a week later it seemed that the events of Hippocratic Oath had been completely forgotten. This bothered me quite a bit not only because it was unrealistic, but because DS9's continuity was one of its greatest strengths. I hated to see that continuity just thrown out the window after this episode, especially considering that Hippocratic Oath is one of my all time favorite DS9 episodes.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that DS9 was sooooo good with continuity that when it screwed up once it bugged the hell out of me. With Voyager, on the other hand, it happens so often that it no longer even phases me. So, while I may be giving Voyager episodes a lot of high scores, those scores are for the self-contained stories, not for the series as a whole. There isn't a lot of cohesiveness between episodes, with the exception of 7 of 9 episodes, and that bothers me. I feel like I'm just watching random space adventure of the week every time I watch Voyager because rarely do episodes build upon what came before.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Kazon Arc was, and still is, the highpoint of Voyager's entire run. (unless you count Ron Moore's 1.5 episodes as a run, in which case I might have to go with them).

Anyway, sorry about my rambling. Continue on with the discussion.
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Old March 22 2012, 04:50 AM   #1345
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Re: Does It Get Better???

starting with Season 3 Episode 21, the show goes on a very long quality streak into a rather excellent season 4 buoyed by a new character who became my favorite evar Trek character.
I agree wholeheartedly with this assessment. I'm in the "yes it gets better" camp. Skip season 2 & 3 mostly, except maybe for the few good ones people mentioned.
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Old March 22 2012, 02:03 PM   #1346
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Re: Does It Get Better???

You Will Fail post
I think "Riddles" and "Alice" go fairly well together - pretty bland but watchable episodes, but overall there's just a real lack of ambition there, moreso with "Alice".
Alice was fairly heavy with script conventions. Like- Tom gave up everything; jobs, friends, romance just to be with his ship.It needed a new everything. He asks Chakotay for more parts; a broadband sensor matrix, EPS conduit, and a tactical data module. If he steals these he'll go to prison.
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Old March 22 2012, 02:22 PM   #1347
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Re: Does It Get Better???

You only say bland because we've lived though, survived Kara Thrace.

(Who ironically was about nearly the same size and age as Jennifer lien.)

In the 90s, we thought that this was all hard ass.
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Old March 22 2012, 03:04 PM   #1348
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Voyager had it's problems, but my biggest pet peeve is that this guy never got any lines.


He just looks so interesting, his face is full of character!
How long has he been in science division? like, forty years?
He must have seen some amazing things.
I bet he has some hilarious stories about Miles O'Brien too.
He served on the Enterprise D, after all.
I bet he calls people in operations "red shirts" still, and they look around confused.
"out of my way red shirts, bad-ass science officer coming through!"
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Old March 22 2012, 04:14 PM   #1349
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Re: Does It Get Better???

@Admiralscreed.

Pretty much, that's my view of the show too. Individual episodes like "Barge of the Dead" can make you go wow, that was amazing trek. But then you think of the bigger picture, the only feeling is being underwhelmed. That's why I simply consider Voyager a collection of a lot of very good sci-fi stories.
I've noticed some fans kind of make up these big narratives for Voyager, like I sometimes see in youtube comments "Oh Voyager was the best show, such an epic story of a captain struggling to get her crew through the Alpha quadrant against so many obstacles and the crew struggling with isolation blah blah blah", and its just like, well hang on a minute, you're really just saying what the show was supposed to be but that's not really the reality. Its almost like people make these things up in their head because its more logical given the show's concept to think Voyager was all those things, than to think it was about a self-repairing ship that was far from home but really didn't struggle that much more than a ship like the Enterprise.

Its funny because reading an interview with Kenneth Biller a while back (which I found for the Kes thread since he was quite open about feeling it was a mistake to let her go), he said he was annoyed that during his episode "Lifesigns", there was a scene with Jonas talking to the Kazon (which no doubt Piller insisted be inserted to desperately try and keep the Kazon arc going). He felt like any viewer watching that episode would be annoyed because they didn't know what was going on, and that's just utter BS to me. As Moore said in his interview, viewers are aware when they randomly dip into a show they haven't been keeping up with, there may be a few things they've missed, treating them like some kind of moron who'll put their foot through the TV if they're not 100% up on what's going on totally counters the ambition and potential of the show, and that should be Biller's mistress, not a very small percentage of mouth-breathers who get confused ridiculously easily. So in the end it just harms the show and you're left with a lot of characters you literally could not give one flying f**k about, while on DS9 even character who you may not have liked (Bashir for me), you at least are marginally interested in what happens with them because you feel like you know them. Its no surprise the Doctor and Seven are the most popular VOY characters.
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Old March 22 2012, 05:48 PM   #1350
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Re: Does It Get Better???

From Ronald Moore's interview, regarding continuity on television:

If you are really just so concerned that this week’s episode won’t make sense because you didn’t see that episode three years ago, why can’t STAR TREK do like ALLY MCBEAL, or THE PRACTICE, or ER, all the big successful shows do. Put a little recap at the top of the show: ‘Previously, on STAR TREK: VOYAGER...’—even if it’s an episode from two years ago. You just quickly get the audience up to speed, because the audience is not stupid. The audience has watched television for a long time. They understand that they have missed some things, that perhaps this is a reference to a show that they didn’t see. They aren’t just going to throw up their hands and move on. If you are pre-supposing that, you are aiming towards the person that is grabbing a beer, and isn’t really paying attention, and is walking out of the room every ten minutes and coming back and sitting down; all you are going to do is dumb down the show. You are reducing it to its lowest common denominator, and what’s the point of that? What do you get out of that? You just get a so-so kind of television experience."
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