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Old December 15 2011, 06:01 PM   #91
stj
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Harvey wrote: View Post
When Han Solo swoops in to help Luke Skywalker at the end of Star Wars, it's a bravo moment, too. Supporting characters get those sometimes. But Luke's still the protagonist, not Han.
Luke got the climactic moment to the plot, the destruction of the death star. Kim didn't get even a bravo moment in what was supposedly a Kim story. much less the climactic moment, which is Paris martyrdom.

They attempt to dramatize it when Harry finds out that his friend, Danny Byrd, is lost on the Voyager instead of him in this reality. But its not very successful -- Kim never seriously considers staying, even though he's been handed exactly what he wants. I've criticized this twice before, though.
You keep assuming the story is about Kim deciding to go back to Voyager, then concluding the "attempt" to dramatize the issue you assume has failed. It may be a shocking thought, but if the episode didn't spend much time or emphasis on the question, maybe that was because it's not what the episode is really about.

To the degree that the would-be protagonist is absent from nearly three-quarters of the story? Yeah it is.
And how is this less admissible as a dramatic technique than keeping the antagonist off stage for nearly three-quarters of the story? There was no good reason for Kim to go to that meeting when he knew perfectly well he had no idea how to proceed. Simply refusing to go for illness was much more sensible and more flattering to your presumed protagonist. Instead, we see Harry being helpless at coping without Tom. That got a lot more dramatization than the decision to go back to Voyager.

All the heroics aren't due to Tom. Harry isn't nearly as passive as you're suggesting.
No, Kim isn't passive. But he isn't heroic. He doesn't even get away from the security personnel without Tom.

Right. Except for getting home to Voyager, the only goal that matters.
Why on Earth do you think that it matters whether Harry Kim gets back to Voyager? He was a minor character, probably there as a placeholder for a token Asian. There are practically no Kim episodes, even if you count this one. And one of them, Nightingale, is a backhanded slap at network executives by the producers, and possibly also meant deliberately to humiliate Wang by diminishing the character.
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Old December 16 2011, 12:24 AM   #92
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Re: Does It Get Better???

stj wrote: View Post
And how is this less admissible as a dramatic technique than keeping the antagonist off stage for nearly three-quarters of the story? There was no good reason for Kim to go to that meeting when he knew perfectly well he had no idea how to proceed. Simply refusing to go for illness was much more sensible and more flattering to your presumed protagonist. Instead, we see Harry being helpless at coping without Tom. That got a lot more dramatization than the decision to go back to Voyager.
Helpless without Tom? Harry might be completely out of his element in that meeting, but Tom wouldn't be one bit of help. Cosimo would, though. Like Tom, he's another character that exists to aid the protagonist.

No, Kim isn't passive. But he isn't heroic. He doesn't even get away from the security personnel without Tom.
Luke doesn't get off the Death Star without Ben Kenobi. Since when are heroes excluded from getting help?

Why on Earth do you think that it matters whether Harry Kim gets back to Voyager? He was a minor character, probably there as a placeholder for a token Asian. There are practically no Kim episodes, even if you count this one. And one of them, Nightingale, is a backhanded slap at network executives by the producers, and possibly also meant deliberately to humiliate Wang by diminishing the character.
That Kim (and Wang) were underused has no relevance to this conversation. Even minor characters get their own episodes sometimes -- and this one belongs to Harry. It also helps that, besides the tag, he's the only character in the main titles to be in the episode (Alternate Tom Paris not being the person we follow week to week).
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Old December 16 2011, 06:14 PM   #93
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Re: Does It Get Better???

The intrinsic interest of the episode Non Sequitur was of course long ago exhausted. But this is interesting as an example of how the conclusion determines the arguments, no matter what. Which asks the fascinating question of why is the assumption so necessary?

Again, why is it acceptable to keep the antagonist off screen for long periods yet it is not acceptable to keep the protagonist off screen? The same reasons for keeping an antagonist off screen apply to the protagonist.

If the story is about Harry's return to Voyager, what is the purpose of the meeting scene? It makes him look ridiculous, not because he didn't know about a project he didn't work on but because he did and knowingly walked into a meeting that he must fail in. He's already decided to return. If it's to show that he doesn't really have a choice, then all that the episode is about is how he gets back.

In which case, if the story is about how Harry gets back, why have Cosimo tell it all? Why not have Harry do something clever, like trick Cosimo, or "dark and gritty," like torture Cosimo?

I guess what I'm really trying to pin down is whether the assumption that is so vitally necessary is that Non Sequitur is a Harry episode, or that Voyager is badly written?
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Old December 17 2011, 04:32 AM   #94
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Over the last few days I have watched four more episodes:

Tatoo: Once again another alien species from the Delta Quadrant has visited Earth. What a coincidence. On a more serious note, I thought this episode was incredibly dull. I didn't like the main plot with the aliens, and the flashbacks to Chakotay's youth were hardly interesting. I hate to say it, but so far this has been the worst episode of Voyager.
1/10

Coldfire: We finally encounter the other being that the Caretaker spoke about in the series premiere. I loved seeing Kes develop her telepathic abilities in this episode. The scenes between her and the other alien of her race (can't remember his name) were very interesting, as were her training sessions with Tuvok. All in all, a very solid episode.
7/10

Maneuvers: A good sequel to the last couple Kazon episodes. I enjoyed seeing Seska again; I loved the way she flirted and toyed with Chakotay, and I liked the plot twist with her impregnating herself using his DNA, since it's perfectly in her character. Overall, a fine episode.
6/10

Resistance: I'm not entirely sure if I really like this episode or if I think it's merely okay. I liked the guest stars for this episode; I felt a lot of pity for the old man who helped Janeway, and I thought the villain for this episode was very menacing. There were some very emotional moments in this episode; learning that the old man's wife and daughter had been killed, hearing Tuvok screaming during his interrogation.
I think I'll give this one a 6/10
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Old December 17 2011, 02:43 PM   #95
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Is The Chute any good?
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Old December 17 2011, 05:32 PM   #96
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Re: Does It Get Better???

I recall thinking it was very good, but it's also the kind of episode I find hard to rewatch due to the subject matter.
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Old December 17 2011, 05:38 PM   #97
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Re: Does It Get Better???

DonIago wrote: View Post
I recall thinking it was very good, but it's also the kind of episode I find hard to rewatch due to the subject matter.
Agreed. I think "The Chute" is a great episode. It's just not one I would want to watch again.
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Old December 18 2011, 05:17 AM   #98
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Same. I liked the Chute and remembering thinking it was a very strong episode but I have difficulty rewatching it.

@Admiralscreed. Yes, "Tattoo" is an abomination of an episode. "Cold Fire", "Maneuvers" and "Resistance" are all solid episodes. I always felt "Cold Fire" could have been much stronger though, I know Braga can do better than that.
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Old December 18 2011, 05:42 AM   #99
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Re: Does It Get Better???

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
@Admiralscreed. Yes, "Tattoo" is an abomination of an episode. "Cold Fire", "Maneuvers" and "Resistance" are all solid episodes. I always felt "Cold Fire" could have been much stronger though, I know Braga can do better than that.
We agree! Hip hip hooray!

I've given plenty of 7's this season, but I'm still waiting for that super special episode that will get a 9 or 10, or at the very least an 8. Hopefully that episode will come soon.
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Old December 19 2011, 03:38 AM   #100
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Re: Does It Get Better???

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post

Coldfire: We finally encounter the other being that the Caretaker spoke about in the series premiere. I loved seeing Kes develop her telepathic abilities in this episode. The scenes between her and the other alien of her race (can't remember his name) were very interesting, as were her training sessions with Tuvok. All in all, a very solid episode.
7/10
Kes is more than just telepathic, she's psychokenetic.
That's means whatever she sets her mind too, she can control on a molecular level.
It makes Kes equal to Jean Grey when she was the Phoenix.(did you notice she had the big "O" when she killed all the plants)
Kes and her race are Ocampian.
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Old December 19 2011, 03:40 AM   #101
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Re: Does It Get Better???

"Coldfire" is good, but I really wish we had gotten to see more of Suspiria. She shows up for about 5 minutes, attempts to murder some people, and then leaves in a tantrum. Pretty lame.
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Old December 19 2011, 04:18 AM   #102
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Re: Does It Get Better???

^Yeah, it always bugged me that no more was made of her.
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Old December 19 2011, 11:02 AM   #103
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Banjoman had plans to make babies with her.

80 year old guy vs. 9 year old girl.

I know their appearances were only glamours/illusions, but come'on, I can't be the first person to think that they would never use a dating service run by Rick Berman.
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Old December 19 2011, 12:25 PM   #104
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Re: Does It Get Better???

I come off as being a bit harsh on Voy and Brandon Braga, but I really like Voyager, and I mean that. I think I was a bit too critical of his work and him. I think he is a really great guy. I'm sorry for being a bit harsh and maybe even rude when talking about him and his work. I really like his work. Voy ages really well.

One thing that sets him apart from other writers is he always follow his heart.
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Old December 19 2011, 04:32 PM   #105
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Re: Does It Get Better???

exodus wrote: View Post
Kes is more than just telepathic, she's psychokenetic.
That's means whatever she sets her mind too, she can control on a molecular level.
No need to be so pedantic.
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