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Old January 16 2012, 10:51 PM   #571
MacLeod
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Anwar wrote: View Post
Q, Who? worked as an introduction episode, nothing more.

And the only reason they escaped was because of deus ex machina (Q). In fact the episode needed both Guinan and Q to work.

VOY tries that, all they get is flack for how the whole episode needed deus ex machina to work and nothing about how good the story was otherwise.
It wasn't really much of a Deus Ex Machina. A Deus Ex Machina usually means using something that was never seen/referrenced before.

Q got them into the mess by hurling the Enterprise to that Encounter, he used the same means to get them out of it.
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Old January 16 2012, 10:56 PM   #572
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Re: Does It Get Better???

I'm not saying the Borg can't be portrayed in different ways, but some portrayals make for more dramatic storytelling than others. While I did like Scorpion, and I thought it gave us an interesting look at the Borg, it doesn't compare to Q, Who? or TBOBW. The more menacing and threatening Borg from those episodes are simply more interesting to me than the victimized Borg in Scorpion. That's fine if you disagree. I'm open to other opinions.
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Old January 17 2012, 02:08 AM   #573
Anwar
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Re: Does It Get Better???

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Q, Who? worked as an introduction episode, nothing more.

And the only reason they escaped was because of deus ex machina (Q). In fact the episode needed both Guinan and Q to work.

VOY tries that, all they get is flack for how the whole episode needed deus ex machina to work and nothing about how good the story was otherwise.
It wasn't really much of a Deus Ex Machina. A Deus Ex Machina usually means using something that was never seen/referrenced before.

Q got them into the mess by hurling the Enterprise to that Encounter, he used the same means to get them out of it.
Deus ex machina in this context just means pure plot contrivance. In this case, the story couldn't happen without Q and his unlimited powers. In order to show just how tough the Borg were, it had to be the power of "God" that saves them.

While I did like Scorpion, and I thought it gave us an interesting look at the Borg, it doesn't compare to Q, Who? or TBOBW. The more menacing and threatening Borg from those episodes are simply more interesting to me than the victimized Borg in Scorpion. That's fine if you disagree. I'm open to other opinions.
It's just not possible to have the Borg be as menacing in VOY as they were in those episodes, because those episodes involved more than the adventures of one lone scout ship.
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Old January 17 2012, 02:36 AM   #574
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Re: Does It Get Better???

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AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
Scorpion Part 1: This episode's most glaring flaw is that it diminished the threat of the Borg. Seeing Borg ships torn apart makes for good action, but I can't help but feel disappointed that the species who once assimilated Picard and almost destroyed the Federation are now having their ships blown apart like TIE Fighters.
Why do folks keep thinking the Borg are the supreme species of the Galaxy? They were never meant to be anything more than ONE race that was stronger than the FEDS. They were never meant to be the biggest threat out there, just one.

The idea of there being at least ONE species out there that could kick Borg ass is EXTREMELY likely.
It's the Boba Fett Syndrome.
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Old January 17 2012, 02:58 AM   #575
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Re: Does It Get Better???

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post

A pretty damn good introduction episode, I might add. Much better than Scorpion. From their very first appearance the Borg were ruthless and menacing, and that's one of the things that made the Borg so great. They were seemingly impossible to defeat. Every attempt by the ENT-D to gain the upper hand resulted in failure.

The crew of the Enterprise beat the Borg every time.
"BOBW" they destroyed the Cube by putting it to sleep. Earth is saved. The fact that the Borg needed Locutus says they never could take us by force. They had to use tactics to trick us to assimilate Earth. If the Borg were so powerful, they would need a tactic like Locutus, they'd just come a assimilate Earth by sheer force.
The fact that the Borg are not that strong a force has been in front of our faces the whole time.
The Enterprise crew showed weakness again in the Borg in "I, Borg" by making them vulnerable to a virus.
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Old January 17 2012, 03:17 AM   #576
Anwar
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Re: Does It Get Better???

To be fair, it was implied that the virus wouldn't have worked since Hugh's individuality was just as much a virus and all it did was affect his one ship.

Oh yeah, again TNG has Crusher destroy the Borg Cruiser in "Descent" with the power of a Sun. If Voyager had done that then it would just be another sign of the Borg being "weakened".

Because the Borg are apparently more powerful than Stars.
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Old January 17 2012, 03:35 AM   #577
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Re: Does It Get Better???

I rather liked that solution to fighting the Borg, actually. On Star Trek: Voyager they would have just beamed over a photon torpedo, detonated it, and called it a day. In "Descent" it took careful risk-taking to defeat what was still a powerful adversary -- even without the Collective mind.
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Old January 17 2012, 03:45 AM   #578
exodus
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Re: Does It Get Better???

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I rather liked that solution to fighting the Borg, actually. On Star Trek: Voyager they would have just beamed over a photon torpedo, detonated it, and called it a day. In "Descent" it took careful risk-taking to defeat what was still a powerful adversary -- even without the Collective mind.
Yeah, credit for that goes to Lore.
The Borg lead by a real Borg couldn't do shit without the help of the Enterprise.
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Old January 17 2012, 03:50 AM   #579
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Well, having Lore in that episode was one element too many. It's probably the weakest cliffhanger of TNG because the episode tries to do too many things at once, and can't give any of them the screen time they need to be properly presented.
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Old January 17 2012, 03:55 AM   #580
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Harvey wrote: View Post
Well, having Lore in that episode was one element too many. It's probably the weakest cliffhanger of TNG because the episode tries to do too many things at once, and can't give any of them the screen time they need to be properly presented.
I agree, however unfortunately it's still canon and counts toward showing the Borg were weak before Voyager.
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Old January 17 2012, 04:24 AM   #581
Anwar
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Harvey wrote: View Post
I rather liked that solution to fighting the Borg, actually. On Star Trek: Voyager they would have just beamed over a photon torpedo, detonated it, and called it a day. In "Descent" it took careful risk-taking to defeat what was still a powerful adversary -- even without the Collective mind.
But what I'm getting at is that if Voyager had done a similar situation wherein they spent most of the episode pissing their pants at the sight of a weakling Probe ship before they lured it near a Star and then caused a solar flare that destroyed the weakling Probe ship while praying to God that it would work, and then fly off a collective bunch of nervous wrecks that they overcame a weakling Probe ship...

...The audience would still say they had weakened the Borg, even if the writers went out of their way to portray the crew as being utterly terrified (and therefore, less competent than the Enterprise crew who showed apprehension but no fear).

Because a weakling Probe ship is more powerful than a Star. Just like the idea of there being even one species out there more powerful than the Borg is utter heresy.
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Old January 17 2012, 04:25 AM   #582
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Re: Does DS9 Get Better???

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
Hi folks.

I just recently began watching Voyager on Netflix. So far I am 13 episodes into the show (14 if you count Caretaker as 2 episodes), and while I am enjoying the show and I like the cast, there hasn't been a single episode that has really, really stood out from the rest. Episodes have ranged from below average (Emanations, Cathexis), to average (Caretaker, Heroes and Demons), to slightly above average (Parallax, Prime Factors, State of Flux). The best episode so far has been Eye of the Needle with the Romulan scientist. While it was a very good episode, it's still nowhere near as good as some of the first season episodes from TNG (Datalore, The Neutral Zone) and DS9 (Duet, In the Hands of the Prophets). So, without spoiling anything, can you folks tell me if Voyager is going to significantly improve? Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying this show quite a bit, but I just don't feel like the writers have taken too many risks. There haven't been any standout episodes so far, and that makes me a little worried. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me, and remember: NO SPOILERS!
I would ask that same question about DS9!

Tidus79001 wrote: View Post
It is the only Star Trek series that I turned off during the pilot episode because it was so awful. I never watched the series after that. I have only seen a handful of DS9 episodes. I saw the finale when it aired & it was insultingly dumb, and it wasn't just me who had that exact same sentiment. Every time I watch DS9 it makes me cringe & not want to see more of it.

They had no ship, and just sat on a space station. Sitting of the Station week after week was big turn off. That worked out so well for the series that by season 3 they added the Defiant to help out the serious flagging DS9 series. DS9 was so awful it was the first & only Star Trek series that hired an actor from a previous series (Michael Dorn) to reprise their character role (Worf) as permanent cast member addition. I was shocked that the writers felt that a Star Trek show didn’t need a real ship for exploration & wasn’t surprised that by season 3 they introduced the Defiant as a ship permanently assigned to Deep Space Nine (the runabout idea was a really seemed like someone’s idea of a bad joke since it really wasn’t designed for long range deep space exploration nor was it capable of real defense of the space station).
Now that DS9 is on Netflix I have tried to watch it again. I have gotten 12 episodes in & they are just awful. Even mediocre would be a huge improvement for DS9.
I will give Deep Space Nine credit that once the Defiant was introduced they did encounter more new alien races & explore more that The Next Generation.
Voyager was the series that got Star Trek back to its roots of exploring strange new world, to seeking out new life and new civilizations and boldly going where no one had gone before.
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Old January 17 2012, 04:59 AM   #583
Harvey
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Anwar wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
I rather liked that solution to fighting the Borg, actually. On Star Trek: Voyager they would have just beamed over a photon torpedo, detonated it, and called it a day. In "Descent" it took careful risk-taking to defeat what was still a powerful adversary -- even without the Collective mind.
But what I'm getting at is that if Voyager had done a similar situation wherein they spent most of the episode pissing their pants at the sight of a weakling Probe ship before they lured it near a Star and then caused a solar flare that destroyed the weakling Probe ship while praying to God that it would work, and then fly off a collective bunch of nervous wrecks that they overcame a weakling Probe ship...

...The audience would still say they had weakened the Borg, even if the writers went out of their way to portray the crew as being utterly terrified (and therefore, less competent than the Enterprise crew who showed apprehension but no fear).

Because a weakling Probe ship is more powerful than a Star. Just like the idea of there being even one species out there more powerful than the Borg is utter heresy.
I'm glad you have the pulse of this hypothetical audience. I tend to think that if the series had produced an episode like that people wouldn't complain about weakening the Borg so much.
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Old January 17 2012, 05:10 AM   #584
Anwar
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Folks already thought Voyager was doing the Borg wrong in "Blood Fever" by showing a Borg corpse, because the Borg are supposed to self-destruct upon death.

If THAT had been the only appearance of the Borg for the entire series, the audience would still say it was an improper showing.
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Old January 17 2012, 05:17 AM   #585
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Re: Does It Get Better???

I don't really think Borg decline began with Voyager. I think the introduction of the Borg Queen in "First Contact" is what totally changed what the Borg were meant to be.
"Scorpion" did a great job of doing an episode without the Borg Queen, and "Dark Frontier" gave us an excellent episode that featured her but also did not present the Borg in any kind of diminished capacity- the Voyager crew didn't take their mission lightly in that episode and came up with tactics and technical knowledge (from the diaries) to accomplish it, and not through brute force.

After that, we didn't even see Voyager really deal directly much with the Borg until "Unimatrix Zero" which was in my opinion awful and really did start ruining the image of the Borg, and then "Endgame" was just the stink cherry on top.
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