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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old January 16 2012, 05:48 AM   #556
You_Will_Fail
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Re: Does It Get Better???

tighr wrote: View Post
AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
I can't help but feel that my perception of the once mighty and powerful Borg has been altered for the worse.
Patience, young grasshopper. You have 4 seasons of Voyager left to watch.
Well I don't really see what you're saying here since it only gets worse or maybe that's what you're referring to.

But, I didn't feel that was happening in "Scorpion" and don't agree with your score. We had the faceless, menacing Borg still intact and just because there was another species introduced that were more powerful didn't really change my perception of them. I mean, in the end, the Borg do adapt and even defeat them so clearly the Borg are still formidable yet.
Personally I thought Part I was stronger than Part II. The build up to meeting the Borg and Species 8472 was good as well as the Chakotay/Janeway debate. Part II was let down by Jeri Ryan's performance for me, she wasn't really acting like a Borg would in that instance but she more than makes up for that in her next 4 years on the show of course. However that certainly did taint the episode a little bit for me.
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Old January 16 2012, 07:21 AM   #557
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Re: Does It Get Better???

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The idea of there being at least ONE species out there that could kick Borg ass is EXTREMELY likely.
It's the transitive property of ass-kicking. Any species that kick the Borg's ass the way the Borg can kick the Federation's ass should be able to kick the Federation's ass twice as hard.

This doesn't happen.
...Because they never fought the Federation in VOY, there WAS no Federation to fight. All there was, was one tiny scout ship and it didn't matter what happened to Voyager because, again, they were just one tiny scout ship.

TNG and DS9 had the advantage of having the whole Federation to play with, VOY did not.

Imagine if BOBW was simply about the ENT-D itself being attacked by that Cube and there was no danger to Earth or anyone else, that's not much of a story.

VOY's premise meant it couldn't do anything big and epic like that. And even when they tried, folks did nothing but complain.

It's no-win.
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Old January 16 2012, 07:35 AM   #558
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Anwar wrote: View Post
Imagine if BOBW was simply about the ENT-D itself being attacked by that Cube and there was no danger to Earth or anyone else, that's not much of a story.
I don't have to imagine. That is the plot of TNG Q-Who. And, unless I'm mistaken, that is taken to be one of the best episodes of TNG.

I realize Voyager was outmatched, but bad writing meant that the Borg episodes were weakened. Q-Who is an example of a well written Borg episode.
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Old January 16 2012, 03:30 PM   #559
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Q, Who? worked as an introduction episode, nothing more.

And the only reason they escaped was because of deus ex machina (Q). In fact the episode needed both Guinan and Q to work.

VOY tries that, all they get is flack for how the whole episode needed deus ex machina to work and nothing about how good the story was otherwise.
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Old January 16 2012, 05:36 PM   #560
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Anwar wrote: View Post
Q, Who? worked as an introduction episode, nothing more.

And the only reason they escaped was because of deus ex machina (Q). In fact the episode needed both Guinan and Q to work.

VOY tries that, all they get is flack for how the whole episode needed deus ex machina to work and nothing about how good the story was otherwise.
A pretty damn good introduction episode, I might add. Much better than Scorpion. From their very first appearance the Borg were ruthless and menacing, and that's one of the things that made the Borg so great. They were seemingly impossible to defeat. Every attempt by the ENT-D to gain the upper hand resulted in failure. Never before had they been faced with such a powerful foe.
What made the Borg seem much weaker in Scorpion was that A) They were defeated so easily by the alien race (Ex: Their cubes were torn apart like TIE Fighters), and B) They had to resort to an alliance with a much weaker faction (Voyager) in order to defeat that enemy. While this all made for a very good story, I still think that it had some negative side effects on my perception of the Borg.

Keep in mind, I still gave Part 1 a 7 (changed from 6 to 7), and Part 2 an 8, so on the whole I thought it was a very good 2 parter. Don't misinterpret what I am saying.
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Old January 16 2012, 06:24 PM   #561
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Re: Does It Get Better???

You were saying you marked the episode down simply because it changed your perception of the Borg. That still seems pretty silly to me.

Anyway, now you've finished Season 3, you can create your "Season 3 thread"!
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Old January 16 2012, 06:25 PM   #562
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Re: Does It Get Better???

While Voyager is certainly a weaker force than the Borg, I thought it was kind of clever how the writers created an enemy that the Borg couldn't fight precisely because their monolithic nature prevented the necessary solutions from occurring to them.

Given the behind-the-scenes stuff to this point, I'm rather wondering how things might have panned out if Kim had bitten the bucket. They'd set him up for a fairly cool death by television standards.
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Old January 16 2012, 07:00 PM   #563
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Yeah, the show woulda been much better if Kim had gone. Seven learning about humanity and femininity from Kes/Kes living the rest of her lifespan would have been much more interesting than seeing some Harry has a crush on Seven jokes/Harry not doing much/
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Old January 16 2012, 07:15 PM   #564
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Though I would miss Harry's priceless comment about not finding a little black box on his chair. Even if it only pointed out how ludicrous the situation was and didn't do the character any favors.

There, I think I deftly avoided any spoilage.
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Old January 16 2012, 07:22 PM   #565
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Re: Does It Get Better???

I don't think one comment would have made 4 seasons of mediocrity worth it.
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Old January 16 2012, 07:25 PM   #566
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Re: Does It Get Better???

DonIago wrote: View Post
Though I would miss Harry's priceless comment about not finding a little black box on his chair. Even if it only pointed out how ludicrous the situation was and didn't do the character any favors.
Ha! Of course its ludicrous. Harry's station didn't have a chair.
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Old January 16 2012, 08:58 PM   #567
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Re: Does It Get Better???

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
You were saying you marked the episode down simply because it changed your perception of the Borg. That still seems pretty silly to me.

Anyway, now you've finished Season 3, you can create your "Season 3 thread"!
If your perception of (insert one of your favorite alien races here) was worsened by an episode, wouldn't you mark the episode down for it? I wouldn't find anything wrong with that.
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Old January 16 2012, 09:16 PM   #568
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Re: Does It Get Better???

But that says nothing about how well the episode was written/acted/directed etc, but then I suppose you're marking the episode as you enjoy them, not to their technical merits - which is fair enough and we all do that to an extent.
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Old January 16 2012, 09:18 PM   #569
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Re: Does It Get Better???

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
You were saying you marked the episode down simply because it changed your perception of the Borg. That still seems pretty silly to me.

Anyway, now you've finished Season 3, you can create your "Season 3 thread"!
If your perception of (insert one of your favorite alien races here) was worsened by an episode, wouldn't you mark the episode down for it? I wouldn't find anything wrong with that.
I'll accept that...

my perception of humans was dramatically worsened by a lot of episodes in Voyager lol

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Old January 16 2012, 09:27 PM   #570
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Let me think about
If my perceptions of Cardassians was worsened by an episode...I don't see how they could be. I like that villains can be 3-dimensional and sometimes surprise you. The whole idea in "Scorpion" was that the Borg's technology/avarice (if you can call it that) basically got them into trouble when they came across a species from a parallel dimension completely alien to them. I just don't see how that would make the episode less enjoyable, why would you want to the Borg to be so 1-dimensional that their description would basically be "cybernetic alien race that can't be defeated by anyone".
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