Does It Get Better???

[exodus]

AdmiralScreed wrote:

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Moving on, unless you'd like to discuss Before And After some more, I've got a couple more episode reviews.

Real Life: I liked the small scenes between Tom and B'Ellana, as well as the Doctor's development, but the story involving him and his family was full of stupid and cringe worthy family movie cliches. I couldn't stand his son who wanted to be a Klingon; I would have slapped the out of him if I were the Doctor.
3/10

I'm disappointed.
I found his son hilarious and family cliches hilarious.
However the kicker is when all that ends when you have to watch his daughter die. First time I watched it, I bawled my eyes out.
This will always be my #1 favorite Voyager ep.
This too me was the Doc's "Inner Light".

[exodus]

AdmiralScreed wrote:

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Better than her performance in Warlord? I have to disagree with you on that. I thought she went above and beyond in Warlord; she was nasty, cruel, and extremely seductive. Playing the villain gave her the chance to show audiences what she was fully capable of.
As for Cold Fire, I don't think her performance was any stronger in that episode than in Before And After, but I did feel that that episode had a stronger story (or at the very least a story I had more personal interest in). I thought it was really neat how Cold Fire explored her telekinetic powers (is that the right "tele" word?) and also how it connected back to the show's pilot episode by introducing us to a relative of the Caretaker and showing us the Ocampans again. It also saw good development for Kes.

Yes, I found Lien plays a better old person than she does sexy, seductive. Her sexy and seductive came off too me as a little girl playing dress up in her mommy's clothes.I think it's easier to play bad than her normal sweet and innocent. Not to mention the guards in the ep. reminded me of Prince in his "My Name is Prince" video w/ with the chain-link police offiicers hat.

However, Kes is my least favorite character on the show. So me giving her any type of praise is big. IMO "B&A" is the only ep. that shows Lien's full range as an actress.

[tighr]

Anwar wrote:

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If they'd used a properly defined group as the second crew (like Romulans) then we'd know just what their differences were and would have something to draw us in as to what type of new crew would develop as a result.

I'd have watched that show.

[AdmiralScreed]

exodus wrote:

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I'm disappointed.
I found his son hilarious and family cliches hilarious.
However the kicker is when all that ends when you have to watch his daughter die. First time I watched it, I bawled my eyes out.
This will always be my #1 favorite Voyager ep.
This too me was the Doc's "Inner Light".

I'm glad you enjoyed it, but do you honestly believe that this episode is of comparable quality to The Inner Light? IMO, The Inner Light is not only the greatest TNG episode ever, but the greatest Star Trek episode period. As much as I like Robert Picardo, there's no beating Patrick Stewart when he's at his best, and he really poured his soul into the part for The Inner Light. IMO, Real Life is just too cliched and cheesy to be anywhere near as good as The Inner Light, which I think has a very original and intelligent storyline. But that's just what I think. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Glad you enjoyed this episode.

Moving onward, I just watched a couple more episodes.

Displaced: This was quite a good episode. Slowly transporting the Voyager crew off the ship and replacing them was a very original and interesting idea. I liked Chakotay's scenes at the beginning quite a bit. The way he maneuvered around the ship, shooting aliens and disabling systems, was very cool and fun to watch. I liked the way the aliens in this episode locked their captives in holo environments that mimicked their actual environments. On the whole this was a very fast paced, action packed, and exciting episode. I was very pleased.
7/10

Worst Case Scenario: My only complaint about this episode is that the premise for the holonovel didn't actually come true and it wasn't used back in season one or two as a long story arc. It would have made for some really dramatic storytelling with real consequences and development for the characters. Revelation, betrayal, and loyalty are all great themes. A shame they weren't explored more earlier on. Now it's too late because Voyager is one big happy family.
Putting my rant aside, I thought that this was one helluva great episode. The opening kept me guessing as to what was happening. I was a little disappointed when I discovered that it was all just a holonovel, but the story still kept taking lots of twists and turns, from the revelation that Tuvok wrote the program to the discovery that Seska sabotaged it. All in all this was a very, very fun and exciting episode. Definitely one of my favorites of the show so far.
9/10

[Anwar]

But the thing about a Maquis takeover...what really would have been different under the Maquis? All their attempts to go home faster would've still failed (because the show would end otherwise), and they were smart enough to know that they couldn't go around handing out advanced tech to people.

Really, what would be the difference?

[Harvey]

There's no reason that the show would have to end if they got home. The writers chose to stick with the "lost in space" premise for seven seasons, but they didn't have to.

[Anwar]

Like I said, it's Gilligan Syndrome.

Other shows manage to avert it (Farscape being a good example) because they had OTHER plots beyond "Go Home". By the time Crichton got back to Earth the Scarran/Peacekeeper/Wormhole tech plotline had become more important.

If VOY had another major plot to drive the show beyond "Go to Earth" then there'd be nothing wrong getting home earlier as long as they could continue the other major plots (which would involve leaving Earth again).

But it didn't, which is a failing of the show that they relied on a limited plot.

[Guy Gardener]

I thought he romcom between Harry and Tom was interesting.

Not enough to hang 40 minutes a week on, but still it was good to have such a positive homosexual relationship on TV in the 90s.

[You_Will_Fail]

Anwar wrote:

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But the thing about a Maquis takeover...what really would have been different under the Maquis? All their attempts to go home faster would've still failed (because the show would end otherwise), and they were smart enough to know that they couldn't go around handing out advanced tech to people.

You have zero imagination.

RE: Displaced - It was a solidly entertaining but it was really just filler fluff and probably the weakest of the 16 episode stretch I mentioned earlier. I get confused that you sometimes mark episodes down for not being very substantive but then this episode gets a 7/10....I suppose your scores at their most basic really are just related to how much you were entertained by the episode right?

RE: Worst Case Scenario - A good episode that I liked, not quite "excellent" in my book but not far off.

[AdmiralScreed]

You_Will_Fail wrote:

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RE: Displaced - It was a solidly entertaining but it was really just filler fluff and probably the weakest of the 16 episode stretch I mentioned earlier. I get confused that you sometimes mark episodes down for not being very substantive but then this episode gets a 7/10....I suppose your scores at their most basic really are just related to how much you were entertained by the episode right?

As I've said before, there's good filler and there's bad filler. IMO, Displaced falls upon the side of good filler.
And with that said, this episode wasn't entirely filler either. I forgot to mention it in my analysis, but I also liked seeing Tom and B'Ellana's relationship develop. Their scenes together were well handled.

[stj]

tighr wrote:

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Well, I did go into a few reasons why I think its bad, but if you really wanted me to do an in-depth review I certainly would.

I'm not sure which DS9 reviewers who refused to review you're referring to, but I'd agree that a refusal to review an episode is cowardice in discussing it.

Double checking I can't find any details on why Favorite Son is bad other than the criticism that the race could not have originally evolved that way. Which doesn't seem very telling since the same applies to the Borg. The Taresians at least don't have magic bandwidth.

I only know of two DS9 fans who've reviewed the complete Voyager, Jammer and The GodBen (I think I've spaced the latter correctly, if not, sorry.) Both refused to even write a review of the episode. I can only speculate about the reasons.

The crackpot assertion above that there's "tons" of scientific evidence for genetic determinism (aka scientific racism,) is evidence that the intrinsic issues raised in the episode have something to do with its supposed badness. The claim that a simple statement of fact (about the nonreviews of Favorite Son) is somehow trolling doesn't just prove that poster has stooped to lunatic insults. It proves that the issue is deeply felt, which means that the episode's insult to that position is objectionable.

Formally, Anwar is perfectly correct that the Maquis would have no serious current objections to Starfleet, given that war against the Cardassians was not at choice to fight over. I think the resistance to admitting simple common sense stems from the duplicity of the Maquis argument. I think Moore really wanted to attack the humanitarian vision of the Federation, that he fundamentally believes that life requires that we do bad things, and that if we emote enough about it, we can move on and enjoy the benefits. I find this both foolish and nasty, but there you are.

The Maquis are not supposed to be wanting war with Cardassia, they are supposed to reject the fatuous, deluded ideals of StarFleet and the Federation. And Moore is outraged because Voyager didn't do what he wanted to do. True, in honest dramatic terms, what he wanted was stupid, but that is still what he wanted. And why the people who get off on a vision of a "Trek" that shows their kind of people find his grotesque rant so compelling.

There was an exchange, maybe in this thread, about Wesley's confession, which arises naturally in a Voyager thread. Moore is notorious for thinking that Wesley was wrong for betraying his friends. The record suggests that Moore is the kind of man who doesn't really believe in any kind of morality beyond thieves's honor. This is also nasty enough, and since there's no such thing, shameful folly.

[AdmiralScreed]

I'll say it again. It's unrealistic that the Maquis would so easily adapt to the Starfleet way of doing things. And they wouldn't continue to stand behind Janeway after all of her serious blunders. A mutiny would have been realistic.
If you recall the holo-novel from Worst Case Scenario, Chakotay takes control of Voyager and then gives the starfleet officers the chance to serve under him. Had that actually happened, and if I were onboard Voyager too, I would gladly put my support behind him. He wouldn't waste time on random anomalies. Chakotay would devote all of his time and resources to getting home, and if an opportunity to get home were to arise he would take it without hesitation. It's unfortunate that that version of Chakotay was only part of a holo-novel. Had he been portrayed that way from the start there would have been some serious conflict between himself and Janeway, and that would have made for some very engaging and exciting storylines.

[RoJoHen]

AdmiralScreed wrote:

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I'll say it again. It's unrealistic that the Maquis would so easily adapt to the Starfleet way of doing things.

Considering the Maquis are, by definition, former Federation citizens and that many of them are former Starfleet officers, I really don't think it would be too difficult for them to adapt at all.

[AdmiralScreed]

RoJoHen wrote:

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Considering the Maquis are, by definition, former Federation citizens and that many of them are former Starfleet officers, I really don't think it would be too difficult for them to adapt at all.

How would you feel if your Starfleet captain was continually squandering time, resources, and your chances to get home? Wouldn't that bother you? Wouldn't you want new leadership?

[RoJoHen]

AdmiralScreed wrote:

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How would you feel if your Starfleet captain was continually squandering time, resources, and your chances to get home? Wouldn't that bother you? Wouldn't you want new leadership?

It would all depend on the situation. The only reason the Maquis were formed in the first place was as a result of the Cardassian war. They were fighting for the right to keep their homes. They're hardly villains.

I'm not saying we wouldn't have benefited from seeing more conflict among the crew in that first season, but I honestly feel like it would have worked itself out relatively quickly.