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Old January 11 2012, 02:16 PM   #391
You_Will_Fail
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Well its all up to what you think.
Personally I think its obvious that "Before and After" is a better written, more adventurous, more original, more meaningful and better acted episode than "Favorite Son" so its quite difficult to swallow that it has the same score.
I guess you found all the bits with Kes and her family/the crew uncovering the mystery behind her jumping backwards in time fairly boring. If Kes doesn't hold your attention then its understandable that you wouldn't enjoy the episode. Everyone has their own preferences, I find Kes to be a very watchable character and thought Lien turned in her best acting performance in this episode being particularly good at acting as the confused older version of herself. The only bit where the episode lags is during the present day when there's a tad too much technobabble.
But overall seeing an alternate future of Voyager where the crew have been through a lot of changes and Harry has married Paris's daughter (!) and Janeway and B'Ellana were dead was really interesting. Not to mention the action of the "Year of Hell" segments and the urgency of the later segments where Kes is running out of time to save herself.

But if you believe that it really only deserves a score of 4 then give it a 4. You might change your mind if you rewatch it like I've done with several episodes I've previously disliked, and you might not. Everyone's different.
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Old January 11 2012, 02:22 PM   #392
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Anwar wrote: View Post
Navaros wrote: View Post
IMO no, Voyager never gets better. It gets worse.
Yes yes yes, we all know you were expecting the show to be about the crew falling to pieces within the first two episodes and spend the entire series hating and plotting to murder one another. At least in their spare time while the rest of it would comprise of them all becoming vicious bloodthirsty space pirates who revel in being free of the Federation and go around ravaging, destroying and stealing everything from every sentient race encountered (especially the nice ones who welcome them) because that's "more true to life" and "better drama" than people who decide to overcome their differences and accept the aid others give them.

They didn't do that, get over it.
All still true, sad to say.

There's a stretch of technical dialogue in Favorite Son that rather forthrightly that genetics don't determine behavior. I've never quite figured out if the DS9 fans in particular can't even review this episode because it implicitly rejects the whole moronic concept of the Jem'hadar (however it's spelled,) or whether the life is survival of the fittest types just have to hear that BLOOD (aka "race" by the terminally tactless,) IS ALL and just freak out on general principles. Either way, most of the tech dialogue in Favorite Son is notable because it makes sense, i.e., isn't actually technobabble.

Or maybe they're just frightened by those scary doorways.
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Old January 11 2012, 02:25 PM   #393
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Re: Does It Get Better???

stj wrote: View Post

There's a stretch of technical dialogue in Favorite Son that rather forthrightly that genetics don't determine behavior. I've never quite figured out if the DS9 fans in particular can't even review this episode because it implicitly rejects the whole moronic concept of the Jem'hadar
So you get your scientific information from terrible Voyager episodes? There's nothing moronic about the concept of the Jem Hadar, and there's a ton of genetic research that is finding markers that seem to pre-determine certain behavioural patterns that go on in life. Sometimes I think you're just the biggest troll on this forum but I can't tell what you're getting out of it.
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Old January 11 2012, 04:22 PM   #394
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Re: Does It Get Better???

In several years from now, or whenever I revisit Voyager, my opinion of a lot of episodes is very likely to change. Hell, I used to love the first two Harry Potter movies, but nowadays they bore me to tears. I couldn't stand the Deathly Hallows Part 1 when I saw it in theaters, but when I rewatched it a year later I thought it was brilliant. The same thing is likely to happen with a lot of Trek episodes when I go back and rewatch them eventually. You_Will_Fail, how many times have you watched each episode of Voyager?
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Old January 11 2012, 04:59 PM   #395
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Re: Does It Get Better???

FWIW I've generally watched each episode under five times, and haven't seen any in years now, which may indicate that if I remember an episode as being good then it was pretty darn good, and vice versa for the bad.

Then again, personal opinion can and will vary.

But "Favorite Son" and "Before and After" having the same score was...I couldn't wrap my head around that one.

One great element of seeing BaF without knowing how Voyager will pan out is that it essentially puts the show on a bit of a timetable...will the stuff that Kes saw come to pass? If it doesn't happen exactly as she saw it (somewhat of a gimme), what will happen instead?

In some ways this episode is the "Q Who" of Voyager in terms of ominous foreshadowing.
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Old January 11 2012, 05:30 PM   #396
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Re: Does It Get Better???

DonIago wrote: View Post
One great element of seeing BaF without knowing how Voyager will pan out is that it essentially puts the show on a bit of a timetable...will the stuff that Kes saw come to pass? If it doesn't happen exactly as she saw it (somewhat of a gimme), what will happen instead?
This is true. It's a bit difficult to REALLY discuss this episode because the OP hasn't yet seen what's to come, but suffice it to say Kes experiences one possible future for Voyager and her crew.

Maybe he'll revisit his score for this episode after completing the series?
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Old January 11 2012, 05:35 PM   #397
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Re: Does It Get Better???

tighr wrote: View Post
Maybe he'll revisit his score for this episode after completing the series?
I may do that.

And I hope I haven't offended anyone with my score. I'm just asking because I don't think I've ever had this much uproar over one of my ratings. Don't you guys ever disagree with the consensus?
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Old January 11 2012, 05:37 PM   #398
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Re: Does It Get Better???

stj wrote: View Post
I've never quite figured out if the DS9 fans in particular can't even review this episode because it implicitly rejects the whole moronic concept of the Jem'hadar (however it's spelled,) or whether the life is survival of the fittest types just have to hear that BLOOD (aka "race" by the terminally tactless,) IS ALL and just freak out on general principles.
I love DS9, and have no problems with the way this episode handles genetics/genetic memory/whatever gobbledegook. It's just a bad episode. It's extremely odd that a race would even develop the way they did, needing to steal other men for procreation and such. It just didn't seem plausible as a concept. The techno-babble was fine, and I bought it, but the concept itself is laughable.

I don't see how this contradicts Jem'Hadar, care to expand on that?

And, I'll just leave this gem here for later discussion: Jem'Hadar are blood related to the Hirogen (and the Tosk, too). Talk amongst yourselves.
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Old January 11 2012, 05:40 PM   #399
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Re: Does It Get Better???

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
And I hope I haven't offended anyone with my score. I'm just asking because I don't think I've ever had this much uproar over one of my ratings. Don't you guys ever disagree with the consensus?
No worries, I'm not offended. This is YOUR thread, we're all just guests. Loud, opinionated guests.

I disagree with the consensus on many episodes. But that's all part of the fun of discussing them! If we all agreed, TrekBBS would have less total posts. Or we'd all be like the Borg.
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Old January 11 2012, 05:41 PM   #400
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Re: Does It Get Better???

tighr wrote: View Post
AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
And I hope I haven't offended anyone with my score. I'm just asking because I don't think I've ever had this much uproar over one of my ratings. Don't you guys ever disagree with the consensus?
No worries, I'm not offended. This is YOUR thread, we're all just guests. Loud, opinionated guests.
Well, I am horribly offended, and I wish a pox on all your houses.

For what it's worth, I'm not a huge fan of TWOK either!
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Old January 11 2012, 07:18 PM   #401
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Re: Does It Get Better???

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
Misco wrote: View Post
My opinion of Rise! was so low that I used to rank it alongside the episode Nemesis for sheer hate/boredom
I love Nemesis!
Really? Wow. Well, I've never really known what 'public opinion' was of the episode because it's not often mentioned on here. Is it regarded well generally then? I'll admit I've seen it exactly once and I hated it so much I swore I'd never watch it again, however, I've just begun season 4 on my rewatch so I will be watching it again after all, very soon. For what it's worth I hope to have my opinion changed!

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
Favorite Son: All in all this is an okay episode, but it could have been better.
4/10
I used to think this episode was not too bad in the past, just another of those boring non-descript Kim episodes, but my recent rewatch has lowered it to the lowest ranking of the low. 1/5 all day, every day. Urgh. The concept is just horrible, I'm sure there's something misogynistic about the whole thing and to top it all it makes the crew look really stupid.

Before and After, I enjoy, but it doesn't make any top ten lists for me; the whole Tom/Kes and Harry/Linnis thing is a bit too weird and incestuous for my liking. However, I do like the time travel elements and getting to see Kes as an older version of herself.

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
For what it's worth, I'm not a huge fan of TWOK either!
I do like TWOK but my favourite TOS film is The Search for Spock... always an unpopular choice!!!
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Old January 12 2012, 03:08 AM   #402
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Re: Does It Get Better???

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
Favorite Son: I liked the aliens-of-the-week in this episode. They were both creepy and seductive, and they also had a clever scheme. Unfortunately Wang gave another bad performance, and the science behind this episode was pretty appalling. It was also pretty cheesy at times.
I wish that more time had been devoted to the aliens who attacked Voyager. Just what is their relationship to the aliens on the planet, and why are they so hostile towards them?
Another thing to note is just how much the aliens of this episode remind me of the Edo from TNG's Justice. They look like gorgeous goddesses, but underneath it all they are quite ruthless. I thought that was quite interesting.
All in all this is an okay episode, but it could have been better.
4/10

Before and After: With the exception of The Year of Hell scenes (and Kes' long hair) I found this to be an incredibly dull and slow moving episode. Still, when this episode was good it was REALLY good.
4/10
You use the words dull and boring allot.
What do you look for in a story for it to be exciting in your POV?
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Old January 12 2012, 04:15 AM   #403
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Re: Does It Get Better???

To answer your question, Exodus, a lot of things. The atmosphere is important; this can include the lighting, music, sets, props, etc. The acting is even more important because it's hard to be engaged in the story when the characters aren't interesting and don't act like real people. The story is just as important as the characters. When it comes to Trek (and most film and television), stories that make good use of the characters and develop them are generally my favorite. Finally, and less importantly, is the script. The reason this is less important to me is because a great actor can salvage even the worst script, which is what happens all the time on Voyager.

So, about Before And After, what was it missing in my eyes? Well, for starters I'm just not a big Kes fan. I don't dislike her, but at the same time I don't think she's one of the most interesting characters on the show (although I must say I like her longer hair ). With that said, her actor gives a fine performance, so it would be unfair for me to hold that against the episode.
I have mixed feelings about the story. On one hand I loved the bits about The Year of Hell; seeing Janeway and B'Ellana killed shocked me and really threw me for a loop. Seeing Voyager torn apart and the crew barely holding together was definitely moving.
One thing that bothered me from the very beginning was that I knew none of this was actually happening. When Chakotay entered the scene and was addressed as "Captain" I instantly knew that this was just "another one of those episodes where something strange has happened to the timeline and it'll all get fixed and be back to normal by the end. Snooze."

I hope my score makes a little more sense to you now.

Note that my score is now 5/10.
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Old January 12 2012, 04:27 AM   #404
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Moving on, unless you'd like to discuss Before And After some more, I've got a couple more episode reviews.

Real Life: I liked the small scenes between Tom and B'Ellana, as well as the Doctor's development, but the story involving him and his family was full of stupid and cringe worthy family movie cliches. I couldn't stand his son who wanted to be a Klingon; I would have slapped the out of him if I were the Doctor.
3/10

Next up we have the worst Voyager episode of all time, Distant Origins (at least until a worse one comes along). Words can't begin to describe just how bad this one was..................
0/10

































In case you couldn't tell, I was kidding about Distant Origins. Just pulling your legs.

I thought it was a great episode with a very relevant message about science vs. religion. Kudos to the writer(s) of this one! I wasn't expecting such a good episode after the last few duds. I really felt for the scientist Gegan. The ending was sad, but also very optimistic.
8/10
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Old January 12 2012, 04:32 AM   #405
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Re: Does It Get Better???

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
To answer your question, Exodus, a lot of things. The atmosphere is important; this can include the lighting, music, sets, props, etc. The acting is even more important because it's hard to be engaged in the story when the characters aren't interesting and don't act like real people. The story is just as important as the characters. When it comes to Trek (and most film and television), stories that make good use of the characters and develop them are generally my favorite. Finally, and less importantly, is the script. The reason this is less important to me is because a great actor can salvage even the worst script, which is what happens all the time on Voyager.

So, about Before And After, what was it missing in my eyes? Well, for starters I'm just not a big Kes fan. I don't dislike her, but at the same time I don't think she's one of the most interesting characters on the show (although I must say I like her longer hair ). With that said, her actor gives a fine performance, so it would be unfair for me to hold that against the episode.
I have mixed feelings about the story. On one hand I loved the bits about The Year of Hell; seeing Janeway and B'Ellana killed shocked me and really threw me for a loop. Seeing Voyager torn apart and the crew barely holding together was definitely moving.
One thing that bothered me from the very beginning was that I knew none of this was actually happening. When Chakotay entered the scene and was addressed as "Captain" I instantly knew that this was just "another one of those episodes where something strange has happened to the timeline and it'll all get fixed and be back to normal by the end. Snooze."

I hope my score makes a little more sense to you now.

Note that my score is now 5/10.
Yes, It does and no it doesn't.
If acting ranks higher for you than script, then shouldn't it rank higher due to Lien performance? IMO she was better in this than "Warlord' or "Coldfire".
It also makes me wonder if Voyager is the right show for you.(regardless if it's Trek or not) in regards to "Does it Get Better"
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