Does It Get Better???

[JanewayRulz!]

You_Will_Fail wrote:

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@Janewayrulz
You are completely missing my point. I know that Janeway and B'Ellana had a mother/daughter dynamic but this is a season 3 episode and the memorial is all going on in Janeway's head. My point is that its incredibly egotistical to assume that you've had a life-changing effect on someone's life and envisage everyone gushing about you at your own funeral talking about how amazing you were. That just messed up and absolutely pointless to the story since its not even the real B'Ellana so technically we don't know how B'Ellana really feels at this point. And I know I'm not alone in feeling that that is only one of many problems with this poor episode.
Also your example from Unimatrix Zero is absolutely baffling, I don't see anything in that exchange that expresses any feelings between B'Ellana and Janeway. You're obviously trying to find some sort of subtext in absolutely any scene in which the two feature. The one in "Barge of the Dead" is an obvious one and its actually my 2nd favorite Trek episode of all time, but "Unimatrix Zero" doesn't show anything.

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By the time Coda has occurred, these people have been together for 2 1/2 years. Considering B'Elanna began this trip as a disaffected outsider and quickly became Janeway's goto gal in Engineering suggests a bond which grew quickly.

Look at their first heart to heart, in episode 2...

TORRES:... Captain, I want to apologize for losing my temper in your Ready room. I think maybe you were hitting a little bit too close to home, you know? I respect Chakotay but he's wrong. I'm not officer material and we both know it. The truth is, I quit the Academy because I realised I couldn't make it in Starfleet, and believe me, no one was sorry to see me go.
JANEWAY: Professor Chapman was.
TORRES: What?
JANEWAY: He put a letter in your permanent file saying that should you ever re-apply, he would support you. He thought you were one of the most promising cadets he'd ever taught.
TORRES: I fought with him almost every day. I was always questioning his, his methods, his assumptions, and he was always slapping me down like some upstart kid. I was surprised he didn't help me pack my bags.
JANEWAY: Some professors like students who challenge their assumptions, B'Elanna. And so do some captains. Professor Chapman wasn't alone. Many of your teachers thought you had the potential to be an outstanding officer. You had more friends at the Academy than you realized.

Whether it was bonding over quantum singularity riddles, or primitive planets or saving each other over the years, it doesn't take a rocket scientist or a psychologist for Janeway to see the impact she's had on any of her crew. In fact, I believe that's part of her job... to mold young officers (physically, mentally) into becoming leaders.

I can't explain "directive 36a" w/o using spoilers, except to say that in a scenario where Voyager must be protected at all costs, it seems strange that the CHIEF engineer thinks its best she leave the ship.

That's why Tom looks so shocked.

As for me looking for "subtext"... I REALLY hope you mean that I am pushing MAMA Janeway's agenda and not some other agenda.

As I've said elsewhere in various Voy threads and the Xena thread... when I look at J/T or even J/7... all I can think of is Crocodile Dundee when he looked at the would-be mugger.

"That's not a knife (J/T subtext)... THIS is a knife (X/G subtext).

[Guy Gardener]

B'Elanna died in Faces.

The choices made by the Transporter clone who took her place were unrealistic.

[RoJoHen]

JanewayRulz! wrote:

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Look at their first heart to heart, in episode 2...

TORRES:... Captain, I want to apologize for losing my temper in your Ready room. I think maybe you were hitting a little bit too close to home, you know? I respect Chakotay but he's wrong. I'm not officer material and we both know it. The truth is, I quit the Academy because I realised I couldn't make it in Starfleet, and believe me, no one was sorry to see me go.
JANEWAY: Professor Chapman was.
TORRES: What?
JANEWAY: He put a letter in your permanent file saying that should you ever re-apply, he would support you. He thought you were one of the most promising cadets he'd ever taught.
TORRES: I fought with him almost every day. I was always questioning his, his methods, his assumptions, and he was always slapping me down like some upstart kid. I was surprised he didn't help me pack my bags.
JANEWAY: Some professors like students who challenge their assumptions, B'Elanna. And so do some captains. Professor Chapman wasn't alone. Many of your teachers thought you had the potential to be an outstanding officer. You had more friends at the Academy than you realized.

And let's not forget their second heart-to-heart:

"WARP PARTICLES!"

[AdmiralScreed]

Rise: I enjoyed this episode quite a bit. The relationship between Neelix and Tuvok was further developed and the guest stars were interesting. I also liked the villains, who unfortunately didn't get much screen time. Creating "natural disasters" to force the colonists away from their homes is pretty original. On the whole this was a very exciting and exhilarating episode; Mr. Sklar's betrayal of Tuvok and the ensuing conflict was one of my favorite scenes.
A very, very solid episode.
8/10

[Vreemdeling]

AdmiralScreed wrote:

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Mr. Sklar's betrayal of Tuvok and the ensuing conflict was one of my favorite scenes.
A very, very solid episode.

Agreed, Although Rise is not one of my favourite episodes I also enjoyed the dynamic between Neelix and Tuvok and I think it is one of the better episodes when it comes to their relationship.

[You_Will_Fail]

JanewayRulz! wrote:

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By the time Coda has occurred, these people have been together for 2 1/2 years. Considering B'Elanna began this trip as a disaffected outsider and quickly became Janeway's goto gal in Engineering suggests a bond which grew quickly.
etc etc.

Why are you telling me any of this? I already know B'Ellana and Janeway have a bit of a bond but that doesn't make any of my criticisms of "Coda" wrong. My point still fully stands that having Janeway watch her own memorial for 4 minutes straight in the episode while everyone gushed about how great she was when it wasn't even REAL was absolutely ridiculous, pointless and on top of that showed her to be egotistical.
As I said, maybe if it had been a *real* memorial services and we got to see the real reactions of the crew then there would actually be something somewhat interesting or worthwhile. The episode was still a badly written, pointless mishmash of "The Next Phase" and "Cause and Effect" where we learned nothing about any of the characters or how they feel except that Janeway clearly believes the crew love her to pieces.

JanewayRulz! wrote:

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I can't explain "directive 36a" w/o using spoilers, except to say that in a scenario where Voyager must be protected at all costs, it seems strange that the CHIEF engineer thinks its best she leave the ship.

Well who was going to go instead of B'Ellana? Some random yellowshirt from engineering? The main characters are always the ones to go on away missions regardless of how improbable (the Captain AND the First Officer both alone in a shuttle going to collect samples in "Coda"? PSHT!). That scene showed nothing about the Janeway/B'Ellana relationship unless you're really grasping for straws and desperately trying to find some subtext




RE: Darkling: I think the episode is OK but not terrible, it works better as a Kes episode than a Doctor episode.

RE: Rise: I thought it was incredibly boring the first time I saw it and it tends to be a really poorly received episode. I haven't seen it since then but I doubt I'd enjoy it much more. This was the episode where I was getting really fed up with Voyager compounded by the fact that there was ANOTHER fricking shuttle crash used to further the plot. The Darkling/Rise/Favorite Son group of episodes (sometimes called "The Triumvirate of Terror") is often considered the lowpoint of Voyager where it reallly starts to test people's patience.

[Guy Gardener]

If I was B'Elanna and there was a dangerous mission in which the Captain and Tuvok might die in, was being staffed, and I had the choice of going myself or sending the guy that raped me, well it's not a hard choice really.

That would make her third officer, if everything went HORRIBLY wrong.

One more death, not saying that she should kill anyone, but odds are if she just waited, death happens, and our tetchy Klingon engineer would be the XO to easily manipulated mancandy. Tom or Chuckles, in either case whosoever survived Voyager and fate punking them, easily manipulated mancandy.

[Navaros]

IMO no, Voyager never gets better. It gets worse.

In the first season or two, Voyager has somewhat of a modicum of a story, even though they abandoned the premise by the end of the first episode.

After that, not even somewhat of a modicum of a story is present, except perhaps regarding one single character who comes on in the later seasons.

The Dominion wrote:

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it was just filler.

That's a great way of stating the same point that I'm trying to make. Voyager has vastly more filler content than it has story content.

That problem gets worse as the series progresses.

[Anwar]

Navaros wrote:

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IMO no, Voyager never gets better. It gets worse.

Yes yes yes, we all know you were expecting the show to be about the crew falling to pieces within the first two episodes and spend the entire series hating and plotting to murder one another. At least in their spare time while the rest of it would comprise of them all becoming vicious bloodthirsty space pirates who revel in being free of the Federation and go around ravaging, destroying and stealing everything from every sentient race encountered (especially the nice ones who welcome them) because that's "more true to life" and "better drama" than people who decide to overcome their differences and accept the aid others give them.

They didn't do that, get over it.

[Guy Gardener]

I like that line from Officespace.

"Every day at work is worse than the last. Every day is the worst day of my life."

Good lord Anwar, cast the first stone much?

Marriages end because couples run out of stories and stop talking or keep repeating the same stories and some one dies.

[You_Will_Fail]

Anwar wrote:

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Yes yes yes, we all know you were expecting the show to be about the crew falling to pieces within the first two episodes and spend the entire series hating and plotting to murder one another. At least in their spare time while the rest of it would comprise of them all becoming vicious bloodthirsty space pirates who revel in being free of the Federation and go around ravaging, destroying and stealing everything from every sentient race encountered (especially the nice ones who welcome them) because that's "more true to life" and "better drama" than people who decide to overcome their differences and accept the aid others give them.

I can't count the number of times someone you've posted something like that and someone has completely deconstructed it and showed how ridiculous and silly your exaggeration is, yet you completely ignore it. For the last time, stop pretending as if no middle ground exists and its either one extreme or the other. I'm gonna try not to say anymore on the matter because I'm not interested in getting into the exact same debate with you I've had at least once before.

Navaros wrote:

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That's a great way of stating the same point that I'm trying to make. Voyager has vastly more filler content than it has story content.

That problem gets worse as the series progresses.

The show gets less cohesive after season 2, but the scripts for individual episodes get better starting with season 4 and beyond. So its definitely a toss up as to what's more important and either point is valid. Personally I'd say the show gets better simply because I *enjoyed* season 4 onwards a bit more due to the tighter scripts, less technobabble nonsense plots etc. But I can see the logic in saying you preferred the earlier seasons because they were the only ones with a continuing story beyond the basic premise of "get home".

I think it will be interesting to see how Anwar feels throughout his watch of Voyager and I'm enjoying the thread so far.

[tighr]

FWIW, Rise was one of my favorite Voyager episodes. Not only do we have a space elevator (which is a nerdgasm for anyone who loves real science in addition to Star Trek) but we also have the relationship dynamic of Tuvok and Neelix. Neelix has his first opportunity here to prove that he knows something that Tuvok does not. I was a little disappointed that they chose to make Neelix fib a little bit about how much knowledge he has, but in the end the point is clear: Tuvok needs Neelix.

The episode is also great because its a Neelix episode without Kes. Finally, we get to see what the character is able to do when he's not anchored down by that lifeless child.

[AdmiralScreed]

tighr wrote:

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FWIW, Rise was one of my favorite Voyager episodes. Not only do we have a space elevator (which is a nerdgasm for anyone who loves real science in addition to Star Trek) but we also have the relationship dynamic of Tuvok and Neelix. Neelix has his first opportunity here to prove that he knows something that Tuvok does not. I was a little disappointed that they chose to make Neelix fib a little bit about how much knowledge he has, but in the end the point is clear: Tuvok needs Neelix.

The episode is also great because its a Neelix episode without Kes. Finally, we get to see what the character is able to do when he's not anchored down by that lifeless child.

100% agreed.

I've been looking at some other reviews of Rise from around the net, and I'm really surprised to see that so many people dislike this episode. I guess you and I are in the minority on this one.

[Misco]

You_Will_Fail wrote:

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The show gets less cohesive after season 2, but the scripts for individual episodes get better starting with season 4 and beyond. So its definitely a toss up as to what's more important and either point is valid. Personally I'd say the show gets better simply because I *enjoyed* season 4 onwards a bit more due to the tighter scripts, less technobabble nonsense plots etc.

This is a really good explanation of why I prefer the post season 3 stuff so much more than the earlier stuff. Then again I do think the later seasons sometimes hit episodic lows that the earlier season don't... with a couple of obvious exceptions.

As far as Darkling and Rise! go (and why the exclamation mark? Silliness) they are both pretty damn bad IMO. I remembered Darkling quite fondly but when I rewatched it I was shocked by how terrible it really is; the Byron bits were unspeakable and also it began to annoy me that the Doctor's experimentations were just causing extra work for B'Elanna. My opinion of Rise! was so low that I used to rank it alongside the episode Nemesis for sheer hate/boredom but on rewatch I found the Neelix/Tuvok confrontation to be rather good. The rest was unmitigated bilge though. Was it supposed to come off as a really cheapass version of Mission Impossible?

[tighr]

AdmiralScreed wrote:

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Darkling: A unremarkable episode. I didn't care too much for "Evil Doctor." And the aliens of the week weren't particularly interesting. Still, this episode did have its good moments. I liked the scenes on the holodeck with the historical figures, and the Doctor's scene with B'Elanna at the beginning was quite funny. I also liked most of the scenes with Kes.
4/10

Darkling blows ass.

0/10. Worst episode of Voyager.

In contrast with Rise, Darkling shows what Kes is capable of doing when she's not buoyed up by Neelix. i.e., nothing. I hate Kes.