RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,162
Posts: 5,402,501
Members: 24,751
Currently online: 587
Newest member: kaklina

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Time’s Orphan
By: Michelle on Aug 30

September-October Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Lee Passes
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Voyager

Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 5 2012, 04:22 PM   #286
You_Will_Fail
Fleet Captain
 
You_Will_Fail's Avatar
 
Location: Trill, Federation World and Proud
Re: Does It Get Better???

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Recognised by whom to be an "inferior" approach? I love arc storytelling, but you can't just throw shit out like that.
Well by most critics for one. "Deep Space Nine" is still a much better received show than "Voyager" in the popular media.
Just off the top of the head, DS9 features in both IGN's top 50 sci-fi shows list (#12) and Empire Magazine's top 50 tv shows ever list (#47) while Voyager doesn't. Over the years, I've seen DS9 praised much more than VOY and VOY derided much more than DS9 in various magazines and publications.
__________________
My 30 Favorite Star Trek Episodes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U4y_sR7l7Y
My 15 Favorite Star Trek Characters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofz1Zbpkxys
You_Will_Fail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 5 2012, 05:16 PM   #287
RoJoHen
Awesome
 
RoJoHen's Avatar
 
Location: QC, IL, USA
Re: Does It Get Better???

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Recognised by whom to be an "inferior" approach? I love arc storytelling, but you can't just throw shit out like that.
Well by most critics for one. "Deep Space Nine" is still a much better received show than "Voyager" in the popular media.
Just off the top of the head, DS9 features in both IGN's top 50 sci-fi shows list (#12) and Empire Magazine's top 50 tv shows ever list (#47) while Voyager doesn't. Over the years, I've seen DS9 praised much more than VOY and VOY derided much more than DS9 in various magazines and publications.
I'm not talking about the shows. I'm talking about the storytelling methods. The post implied that episodic TV is considered an inferior format, which doesn't make any sense since they decided to return to that format for Voyager.
__________________
I am the Quintessential Admiral.
RoJoHen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 5 2012, 05:49 PM   #288
tighr
Commodore
 
tighr's Avatar
 
Location: California
Re: Does It Get Better???

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
The post implied that episodic TV is considered an inferior format, which doesn't make any sense since they decided to return to that format for Voyager.
"Deciding" to return to episodic format does not imply episodic format is superior. It implies that the idiots in charge thought it was superior.

Anyway, I think the original context was that arc storytelling is the more complex and rewarding format; not episodic. Someone got their pronouns mixed up.
__________________
~Tighr™: Not helping the situation since 1983
tighr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 5 2012, 06:23 PM   #289
RoJoHen
Awesome
 
RoJoHen's Avatar
 
Location: QC, IL, USA
Re: Does It Get Better???

tighr wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
The post implied that episodic TV is considered an inferior format, which doesn't make any sense since they decided to return to that format for Voyager.
"Deciding" to return to episodic format does not imply episodic format is superior. It implies that the idiots in charge thought it was superior.

Anyway, I think the original context was that arc storytelling is the more complex and rewarding format; not episodic. Someone got their pronouns mixed up.
The only point I was making was that neither is superior or inferior. It all depends on what you do with them.
__________________
I am the Quintessential Admiral.
RoJoHen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 5 2012, 09:16 PM   #290
You_Will_Fail
Fleet Captain
 
You_Will_Fail's Avatar
 
Location: Trill, Federation World and Proud
Re: Does It Get Better???

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
The only point I was making was that neither is superior or inferior. It all depends on what you do with them.
I would disagree. In critical circles, the episodic format these days is definitely mostly regarded as outdated, inferior, bland and a bit lazy when it comes to hour-long dramas. All the bland procedurals on CBS spring to mind - NCIS, Criminal Minds etc. They pale in comparison to the shows that have properly serialized seasons.
On the other side of the coin, making a show serialized can definitely help it hold onto viewers as the show won't get confuse viewers with complicated and detailed lore and backstory (which has happened with "Fringe" I think) - but for viewers who have stayed with a serialized show, the rewards are bigger over those who just tune in for an adventure of the week type show.
__________________
My 30 Favorite Star Trek Episodes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U4y_sR7l7Y
My 15 Favorite Star Trek Characters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofz1Zbpkxys
You_Will_Fail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 5 2012, 09:25 PM   #291
RoJoHen
Awesome
 
RoJoHen's Avatar
 
Location: QC, IL, USA
Re: Does It Get Better???

I guess it depends on what "rewards" your talking about. I personally prefer serialized shows, but shows such as those on CBS manage to hold on to a lot of viewers. From the network's perspective, episodic TV is a lot easier to grab new viewers because they can usually jump in whenever they want.
__________________
I am the Quintessential Admiral.
RoJoHen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 5 2012, 10:15 PM   #292
Relayer1
Commodore
 
Relayer1's Avatar
 
Location: The Black Country, England
Re: Does It Get Better???

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Relayer1 wrote: View Post
It wasn't less important - it was recognised as an alternative and inferior approach and dismissed in favour of a more mature and rewarding format.
Recognised by whom to be an "inferior" approach? I love arc storytelling, but you can't just throw shit out like that. They obviously didn't think it was that bad that they returned to it two years later when Voyager premiered.
Yes, but the creative team behind DS9 were brilliant and so was the show.

The decisions made by the Voyager team were poor and so was the show...
__________________
Soon oh soon the light, Pass within and soothe this endless night, And wait here for you, Our reason to be here...
Relayer1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 5 2012, 10:53 PM   #293
tighr
Commodore
 
tighr's Avatar
 
Location: California
Re: Does It Get Better???

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Yes, but the creative team behind DS9 were brilliant and so was the show.

The decisions made by the Voyager team were poor and so was the show...
I particularly like how Ron Moore transferred to Deep Space 9 after TNG ended and wrote some of its best episodes. Then, when DS9 ended, he transferred to Voyager and wrote one episode before quitting because the Voyager production team was shit. He then proceeded to make the phenomenal Battlestar Galactica as a big "F-U" to the Star Trek universe.
__________________
~Tighr™: Not helping the situation since 1983
tighr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 5 2012, 10:55 PM   #294
Relayer1
Commodore
 
Relayer1's Avatar
 
Location: The Black Country, England
Re: Does It Get Better???

tighr wrote: View Post
Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Yes, but the creative team behind DS9 were brilliant and so was the show.

The decisions made by the Voyager team were poor and so was the show...
I particularly like how Ron Moore transferred to Deep Space 9 after TNG ended and wrote some of its best episodes. Then, when DS9 ended, he transferred to Voyager and wrote one episode before quitting because the Voyager production team was shit. He then proceeded to make the phenomenal Battlestar Galactica as a big "F-U" to the Star Trek universe.
Nailed it in one...

If anyone's not read it yet, Ron Moore on Voyager :

http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118.htm
__________________
Soon oh soon the light, Pass within and soothe this endless night, And wait here for you, Our reason to be here...

Last edited by Relayer1; January 5 2012 at 11:20 PM.
Relayer1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 5 2012, 10:59 PM   #295
tighr
Commodore
 
tighr's Avatar
 
Location: California
Re: Does It Get Better???

And I wont spoil it for the OP AdmiralScreed, but the episode that Ron Moore wrote was pretty damn good.
__________________
~Tighr™: Not helping the situation since 1983
tighr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 5 2012, 11:47 PM   #296
Anwar
Vice Admiral
 
Anwar's Avatar
 
Location: Regina, SK, Canada
Re: Does It Get Better???

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
tighr wrote: View Post
Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Yes, but the creative team behind DS9 were brilliant and so was the show.

The decisions made by the Voyager team were poor and so was the show...
I particularly like how Ron Moore transferred to Deep Space 9 after TNG ended and wrote some of its best episodes. Then, when DS9 ended, he transferred to Voyager and wrote one episode before quitting because the Voyager production team was shit. He then proceeded to make the phenomenal Battlestar Galactica as a big "F-U" to the Star Trek universe.
Nailed it in one...

If anyone's not read it yet, Ron Moore on Voyager :

http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118.htm
That interview/transcript is all BS. And he conveniently forgets all the prior established stuff that would keep any of that from happening in VOY.

Moore has no real say in the matter, his own attempt at a "VOY done right" thing ran out of steam after 2 seasons before collapsing in less than 4 seasons.

And to top it off, he couldn't even make such a show from scratch, he had to use a pre-existing series to lift stuff from to make it!
Anwar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 6 2012, 12:10 AM   #297
Relayer1
Commodore
 
Relayer1's Avatar
 
Location: The Black Country, England
Re: Does It Get Better???

Anwar wrote: View Post
Relayer1 wrote: View Post
tighr wrote: View Post
I particularly like how Ron Moore transferred to Deep Space 9 after TNG ended and wrote some of its best episodes. Then, when DS9 ended, he transferred to Voyager and wrote one episode before quitting because the Voyager production team was shit. He then proceeded to make the phenomenal Battlestar Galactica as a big "F-U" to the Star Trek universe.
Nailed it in one...

If anyone's not read it yet, Ron Moore on Voyager :

http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118.htm
That interview/transcript is all BS. And he conveniently forgets all the prior established stuff that would keep any of that from happening in VOY.

Moore has no real say in the matter, his own attempt at a "VOY done right" thing ran out of steam after 2 seasons before collapsing in less than 4 seasons.

And to top it off, he couldn't even make such a show from scratch, he had to use a pre-existing series to lift stuff from to make it!
My view is that he could take an existing franchise and turn it into something great in a similar way to Alan Moore used to in the comics field.

He'd have made a big difference to Voyager...
__________________
Soon oh soon the light, Pass within and soothe this endless night, And wait here for you, Our reason to be here...
Relayer1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 6 2012, 12:17 AM   #298
tighr
Commodore
 
tighr's Avatar
 
Location: California
Re: Does It Get Better???

Anwar wrote: View Post
Moore has no real say in the matter, his own attempt at a "VOY done right" thing ran out of steam after 2 seasons before collapsing in less than 4 seasons.

And to top it off, he couldn't even make such a show from scratch, he had to use a pre-existing series to lift stuff from to make it!
So.... you didn't like BSG?

So.... you didn't like Batman Begins or The Dark Knight, or just about everything Frank Miller has ever done?

Some of the best stuff is re-imagined.
__________________
~Tighr™: Not helping the situation since 1983
tighr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 6 2012, 12:38 AM   #299
You_Will_Fail
Fleet Captain
 
You_Will_Fail's Avatar
 
Location: Trill, Federation World and Proud
Re: Does It Get Better???

Anwar wrote: View Post
That interview/transcript is all BS. And he conveniently forgets all the prior established stuff that would keep any of that from happening in VOY.
Sure, whatever Anwar
Heard it all before, still not remotely convinced.
__________________
My 30 Favorite Star Trek Episodes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U4y_sR7l7Y
My 15 Favorite Star Trek Characters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofz1Zbpkxys
You_Will_Fail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 6 2012, 01:30 AM   #300
Harvey
Admiral
 
Harvey's Avatar
 
Re: Does It Get Better???

stj wrote: View Post
The primary characteristics imputed to Kim in later seasons are a mild hypochondria and a mild resentment at not being promoted.
You'll have to refresh my memory as to where the hypochondria comes up. I don't remember it. As to being mildly resentful towards not being promoted, that would have been an interesting character trait had it actually been played (two lines of dialogue -- all I can remember -- don't count).

Actually, Kim is also supposed to be both brilliant and a complete fuckup, but not in a comic Rodney McKay way. If Kim was really a main character this would have been a major problem in the show characterization.
When was he a complete fuck up? Kim's character was that he was brilliant at his work (as evidenced by joining the senior staff of a choice assignment right out of the Academy), but inept outside of it (as evidenced by his awkwardness with women as the show went on, but immediately illustrated in "Caretaker" when Quark almost talks him out of his money). Of course, we're also supposed to believe that he has a beautiful and attractive fiance back home. If that isn't geek wish fulfillment, it's certainly inconsistent writing.

I must confess I don't remember a second of "Nightingale," but I was amused to read Jammer's review of the episode and have one of the first things come up be this comment:

Jammer wrote:
The story break meetings must boil down to: "That darn Harry! He's such a funny, naive kid! How green can we make him this week?"
Yeah, he was played as naive from beginning to end, except for the occasional outlier like "The Disease." Of course, in the true fashion of the series, Harry's mistake and Janeway's dressing down don't have any repercussions.

As for Chakotay, Beltran seems not to have wanted to do much besides his player persona, which by the way he does very well.
This comment is silly. From numerous interviews and convention appearances, its obvious Beltran wanted to be doing more, but the writers didn't give him the material.

Again, if you try to watch everyone on screen, when other dialogue and action is taking place, Beltran doesn't usually react if he doesn't have lines or action himself. People love to bash Wang's acting, but he usually acted like he was in the scene, even without lines or action. But then, most people talk about "wooden" performances, and to my eyes Wang wasn't that either. I almost never see criticism of Wang as hammy.
Sounds like a description of a bored actor to me, especially in light of Beltran's interviews during and after the series.
__________________
"This begs explanation." - de Forest Research on Star Trek

My blog: Star Trek Fact Check.
Harvey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
improve season one better

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:14 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.