Does It Get Better???

[Captain Kathryn]

One more complaint...the Doctor's dumb blonde wife before the timeline change...WTF. Out of character? Yes?

And what was wrong with Tom's hair?!?! Or lack of it, rather.

Also, it's really ironic that Chakotay not only blows off the admiral AND dies in the admiral's timeline...but if you watched earlier in the show (forget the episode name), it depicts Chakotay and Kim going back in time to save Janeway's (and the rest of the crew's) lives when their ship is destroyed.

All of the time travel episodes...too many...I love Voyager, but that (excluding Seven/Chakotay ) was it's worst aspect...all of the time travel. Like Janeway says, it just gives you a headache.

[Guy Gardener]

Because you have nuts, those novels were not written for you Screed, so feel comfortable that you have made the perfect decision.

Despite having the first female Captain the show still intentionally wasn't geared towards a female audience especially, even if it attracted one quite well, because Seven of Nine completely backfired... They wanted millions of 14 year old boys rubbing their trousers looking at Jeri, but what they actually got was thousands of 14 year old girls believing (accurately and) purposefully that women can break any sort of boundary and be bloody impressive while doing it... But "most" of those novels are made with the female reader in mind and I found them toxic.

Why did the Admiral pick that moment?

Seven of Nine was going to die and Chakotays heart was going to break, and then he breaks. Admiral Janeway had to wait till their relationship had started but neither one of them had died. There's no point in saving Chanika's lives too early if they're not going to get it on and live happily ever after.

Tuvok just needed a medical mind meld from a compatible Vulcan Doctor and he would have been fine, but because Voyager took so long to get home he decayed beyond their ability to fix. She should have brought a Vulcan Doctor with her to the Future. Doctor Selar even because I love her.

Neelix still got his happy ever after with that girl where he was crowned king. Seriously, he was boss and had a fine piece of fluff waiting in the bedroom when he got home from work. Oh and a son. Like Janeway had the heart to unfather Neelix just so he could sit alone in his room on Earth every night crying about how none of the humans would frakk him.

And why not just scrub everything?

In Eye of the Needle they already admitted that by Episode 7 that their crew had had FAR TO MUCH POSITIVE IMPACT on the Delta Quadrant and that it would be just rude to stop Caretaker kidnapping and raping the crew, which in turn would rob the Delta Quadrant of how awesome their continued presence was.... Just a little full of themselves, much for episode seven?

Besides if you nix them at Caretaker, then suddenly there's no Teran computer revolution of the 1970s, and the Q Civil war is completely up in the air, and we'd get to find out if 8472 were just posturing or if they really were going to PURGE the galaxy of all life? But even though it was mostly irrelevant and trivial, she couldn't screw with the events of Q2 because Q would notice/know and kick a stink that she was screwing with his personal timeline.... Q2 was the fartherest back she could go without Q clouting her in the back of the head like Gibbs does to Denozo on NCIS when ever he fucks up.

Another possibility is that Miral only agreed to kill herself, like she doesn't know what happens when you change the past. The fake future is obliterated, but she only agreed to help crazy old Admiral Janeway if she could fix it that she was born in the Alpha Quadrant and didn't have to put up with the first ridiculous 14 years of her life on Voyager alone mostly catching up to Naomi for height and then fighting blondy mean girls style to see who gets Icheb (A seven year old Klingon looks, acts and is treated like an adult by just about everyone.). So not only was Miral complicit in her own suicide but she confirmed that the device worked by using it off camera which means that this "future" was already an alternate from whence the Admiral first planned to go about this lark.

(I haven't seen Endgame in maybe three years? This is me cold, calm and rusty)

[Captain Kathryn]

Guy Gardener wrote:

---

Because you have nuts, those novels were not written for you Screed, so feel comfortable that you have made the perfect decision.

Despite having the first female Captain the show still intentionally wasn't geared towards a female audience especially, even if it attracted one quite well, because Seven of Nine completely backfired... They wanted millions of 14 year old boys rubbing their trousers looking at Jeri, but what they actually got was thousands of 14 year old girls believing (accurately and) purposefully that women can break any sort of boundary and be bloody impressive while doing it... But "most" of those novels are made with the female reader in mind and I found them toxic.

Why did the Admiral pick that moment?

Seven of Nine was going to die and Chakotays heart was going to break, and then he breaks. Admiral Janeway had to wait till their relationship had started but neither one of them had died. There's no point in saving Chanika's lives too early if they're not going to get it on and live happily ever after.

Tuvok just needed a medical mind meld from a compatible Vulcan Doctor and he would have been fine, but because Voyager took so long to get home he decayed beyond their ability to fix. She should have brought a Vulcan Doctor with her to the Future. Doctor Selar even because I love her.

Neelix still got his happy ever after with that girl where he was crowned king. Seriously, he was boss and had a fine piece of fluff waiting in the bedroom when he got home from work. Oh and a son. Like Janeway had the heart to unfather Neelix just so he could sit alone in his room on Earth every night crying about how none of the humans would frakk him.

And why not just scrub everything?

In Eye of the Needle they already admitted that by Episode 7 that their crew had had FAR TO MUCH POSITIVE IMPACT on the Delta Quadrant and that it would be just rude to stop Caretaker kidnapping and raping the crew, which in turn would rob the Delta Quadrant of how awesome their continued presence was.... Just a little full of themselves, much for episode seven?

Besides if you nix them at Caretaker, then suddenly there's no Teran computer revolution of the 1970s, and the Q Civil war is completely up in the air, and we'd get to find out if 8472 were just posturing or if they really were going to PURGE the galaxy of all life? But even though it was mostly irrelevant and trivial, she couldn't screw with the events of Q2 because Q would notice/know and kick a stink that she was screwing with his personal timeline.... Q2 was the fartherest back she could go without Q clouting her in the back of the head like Gibbs does to Denozo on NCIS when ever he fucks up.

Another possibility is that Miral only agreed to kill herself, like she doesn't know what happens when you change the past. The fake future is obliterated, but she only agreed to help crazy old Admiral Janeway if she could fix it that she was born in the Alpha Quadrant and didn't have to put up with the first ridiculous 14 years of her life on Voyager alone mostly catching up to Naomi for height and then fighting blondy mean girls style to see who gets Icheb (A seven year old Klingon looks, acts and is treated like an adult by just about everyone.). So not only was Miral complicit in her own suicide but she confirmed that the device worked by using it off camera which means that this "future" was already an alternate from whence the Admiral first planned to go about this lark.

(I haven't seen Endgame in maybe three years? This is me cold, calm and rusty)

Janeway would have never...ever...went back to pre-Caretaker. Oh my god...no. That would have been terrible. It would have been like nothing ever happened. I would rather have it as is than have it become pre-Caretaker.

[Guy Gardener]

She'd have to go back to preCaretaker to save the 76 crewmen aboard Equinox before half of them died in the first week, and the rest either died or went bad and died, or went bad and then waited for trial on Earth for the next 2 decades on Voyager in the Admirals timeline.

[tighr]

More proof that Janeway just didn't really care about dead people. All the people dead and gone because of HER actions, and she suddenly cares about Seven and Chakotay? Naw, she's lying to us, right to our faces. The real reason for picking that time and place to go back in time is because they are right next to a transwarp hub, and that's just the macguffin she needs to magick everyone back to the Alpha Quadrant. It's just a bonus that Chakotay and Seven haven't taken a dirt nap by this point in time, and it's mere coincidence that Neelix is happy on his Talaxian harem colony.

[AdmiralScreed]

The more we discuss Endgame, the more I think the entire episode was one gigantic, convoluted mess. The more a person thinks about the time travel element of this episode (which I am doing right now), the more questions are raised, and every action in this episode begins to make less and less sense.

It's an enjoyable episode if you take it for what it is, which is why I'll stick with my high score of 8/10. I just wish it had been better thought out and had included the things I mentioned in my review.

[teacake]

Captain Kathryn wrote:

---

Besides Janeway asking Chakotay to "set a course for home", they don't converse at all in the episode. He also uncharacteristically refers to Janeway's future self as just "an admiral from the future" and not the person who has been his friend for 7 years. A little disrespectful, I think... Sheesh.

He refers to Admiral Janeway that way because she is not the person who has been his friend for 7 years. This is normal etiquette for when you meet someone from the future you know in the current day.. you're suspicious, you don't know if this person in front of you has led a life that has potentiallymade them a very different person than the current person you know. Chakotay is respectful but making a point that this Admiral is not his Janeway.

Everyone wasn't all lovey dovey with future Amy Pond either. Even James Kirk said "bullshit" when confronted with future Spock.

[Guy Gardener]

Instead of blowing up the shuttle capable of instant transgalactic flight because she couldn't trust Starfleet to use future tech responsibly, Kathy could have trusted at the least her own crew to use the technology responsibly and then try to blow up Voyager, or just the time drive, after they had used the time drive to get back to the Alpha Quadrant before Starfleet could get hold of it.

The Time Drive was unstable and breaking down, but if B'Elanna and Harry looked over the technology for a month, they could have built a new one, even a better less wiggy time drive, that wasn't wearing down on the verse of catastrophic faliure, and jumped home without any problems or having to contend with the Borg.

It's possible that Janeway massaged the truth until her yonger self thought that it was her own idea for the old lady to whack the Queen? But really? Whacking the queen using a virus similar to something that was already floating in Ichebs blood stream and everyone Icheb had had sex with.

Just a by the by.

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Borg_Invasion_of_2381

Becuase of Endgame, 63 billion Federation, Klingon and Romulan citizen's died in the novels as payback for what Admiral Janeway did to the Collective.

If there was a reason to backstep and stop Endgame you would think the number of fatalities that might be averted would be considerably less than 63 billion souls? Of course 63 billion people died, but not Seven of Nine.

Was that when Kathryn died?

[teacake]

Guy Gardener wrote:

---

She'd have to go back to preCaretaker to save the 76 crewmen aboard Equinox before half of them died in the first week, and the rest either died or went bad and died, or went bad and then waited for trial on Earth for the next 2 decades on Voyager in the Admirals timeline.

Really you could keep going back and back and back the more people you thought of who were dead. But eventually you run into the possibility that you might not make it to the favorite thing to save, which is 7.

Captain Kathryn wrote:

---

One more complaint...the Doctor's dumb blonde wife before the timeline change...WTF. Out of character? Yes?

Oh it was fabulous. Of course he's flattered as hell that a REAL woman who also curiously has similar features to his protege/crush that he half created wants him. And I bet she's smart as hell too, just knows how to please the Doctor with the right fawning. Probably has a payoff for both of them, that dynamic.

[Guy Gardener]

AdmiralScreed wrote:

---

It's an enjoyable episode if you take it for what it is, which is why I'll stick with my high score of 8/10. I just wish it had been better thought out and had included the things I mentioned in my review.

8 out of ten minus the 10 out of ten you gave Timeless, because it was the same damn script with a tiny polish.

Which is actually minus two out of ten.

[Guy Gardener]

teacake wrote:

---

Really you could keep going back and back and back the more people you thought of who were dead. But eventually you run into the possibility that you might not make it to the favorite thing to save, which is 7.

You haven't read Chapter 10 yet?

[AdmiralScreed]

Guy Gardener wrote:

---

8 out of ten minus the 10 out of ten you gave Timeless, because it was the same damn script with a tiny polish.

Which is actually minus two out of ten.

Hey, I never said my rating system was fair and objective, or for that matter even very smart.....

Borg Queen + time travel + fight against the Borg to return home = awesomeness!!!

EDIT: And a little hot romance between Seven and Chakotay earns it an additional point......

[Guy Gardener]

I'm not saying that it didn't tick all the boxes but you're not going to minus points for plagiarism?

[AdmiralScreed]

- 1 for plagiarism

- 1 for confusing time travel

That leaves.....8 out of 10!!!

[Captain Kathryn]

teacake wrote:

---

He refers to Admiral Janeway that way because she is not the person who has been his friend for 7 years. This is normal etiquette for when you meet someone from the future you know in the current day.. you're suspicious, you don't know if this person in front of you has led a life that has potentiallymade them a very different person than the current person you know. Chakotay is respectful but making a point that this Admiral is not his Janeway.

Everyone wasn't all lovey dovey with future Amy Pond either. Even James Kirk said "bullshit" when confronted with future Spock.

True.