Does It Get Better??? - Page 125

exodus · March 18 2013, 07:11 AM

Seeing that much of Voyager in later years was shown out of production order, I always assumed "Renaissance Man" was written and filmed before "Author, Author". So Janeway isn't punishing him because she still doesn't see him as "real" and it's absurd to her to punish something she views as a machine. I'm not sure the EMH can be held in the brig. Couldn't he just walk through the force field or transfer his program to another room? He would have to be willing to accept punishment I assume, if not other than deleting his program how would you stop or contain a being of light and computer pathways?

Guy Gardener · March 18 2013, 08:12 AM

Remember O'Brien in hard Time?

The Doctor can spend 20 years in the brig while the rest of the crew blinks.

They can simulate pain or death, strike him with any disease they can think of, effect blindness, remove limbs, or do all sorts of horrible things to his memories like murder his children who don't exist or arrange a marriage to a right shrew.

The Doctor has no idea how lucky he had it, that they let him run amok willy nilly with no checks and balances, consequences or repurcussions.

tighr · March 18 2013, 04:44 PM

exodus wrote:

I'm not sure the EMH can be held in the brig. Couldn't he just walk through the force field or transfer his program to another room?

His mobile emitter is still a physical device, he would not be able to walk through the force field. There are no holoemitters in the brig, either. This works just fine in sickbay, though, as long as he's not wearing the mobile emitter.

In fact, on more than one occasion, he is imprisoned in a cell with no way of getting out.

Guy Gardener · March 18 2013, 07:54 PM

The doctor can't express his unhappiness by spitting into his patients.

So he has to get creative.

AdmiralScreed · March 18 2013, 08:41 PM

Alright, so my thoughts on Endgame........

Well there are a couple ways that I can critique this episode. One, I can critique this episode for what was actually in it. Two, I can critique it for what was NOT in it. I'm going to do both.

Okay, so we've finally made it to the end of the series. I knew going into this episode that they were going to make it home. In fact, I've known it for a very long time. The show ended 12 years ago, and I've been floating around Trek forums long enough that it would have been impossible for me to not read that spoiler at one point or another. So, going into this episode I wanted to know exactly how they were going to get home, who was going to make it back alive, who wasn't, and what was going to happen when they were finally reunited with Starfleet.

So, my question about how they were going to get home was answered in Endgame.........through a convoluted time travel plot, future Janeway helps the Voyager from our timeline get home 16 years faster than in her own timeline. Not bad. Time travel has been done to death in Trek, especially in Voyager, but I'll buy it......well, I'll mostly buy it. If Janeway can go all the way back in time, why did she pick this particular point in time?............Okay, so Voyager was close to the Borg travel hubs, so she wanted to help them use the hubs to travel back home. That makes sense....but couldn't she have also used her technology to go back even further? As several of you pointed out, Carrey had just been killed several episodes earlier. Why didn't she choose to save him, especially considering saving lives was her entire motivation for doing this in the first place? Heck, she could have even gone back to the first episode and prevented them all from being stuck in the Delta Quadrant.

I'm nitpicking. To me, these are minor points that don't detract very much from the viewing experience. Still worth pointing out though.

Moving on, I definitely enjoyed seeing the Voyager crew of the future. Too bad that that future didn't actually happen.......

Another Borg episode? I'm onboard with that. Seeing how they were the biggest villians on this show, it was fitting that they played a large role in the finale, and also that the Borg Queen finally met her end. I have no complaints about any of this.

Chakotay and Seven? They'd been hinting at them getting together, so I'll buy it. Still, it would have been nice to have seen what happened between them once they got home......which leads to my next point.....

WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THEY GOT HOME!!!!!?????

What a wasted opportunity. Seriously, they're not going to show us what happens to them all?

What happens to Chakotay and his Maquis mates? I doubt that everyone back home welcomed them with such open arms. There are always the skeptics. Did they go through any kind of trial? Why didn't we see any of this??? I guess we're just supposed to assume that they returned as decorated heroes.

Where was the big father-son reunion between Admiral Paris and Tom? There was some bad blood between them before Voyager was whisked away. It would have been nice to have seen them finally put the past behind them and move on. No hug even???

Where's the big ceremony? Like the one at the end of Star Trek VI. Come on.......

Why couldn't this episode have been three parts instead of two? Or if they'd returned home earlier in the season then we would have had lots of time to see them adapting to life back home in the Alpha Quadrant. But I digress......

I really did enjoy this episode, despite all of my quibbling. I think they did plenty of things right with Endgame, I'm just thinking of ways it could have been even better!

With all that said, my final rating is......

8/10

That wraps up this show.

teacake · March 18 2013, 10:24 PM

A post Endgame movie would have been nice, but they would need a drama to deal with rather than just being a doco about what they did back home. If you have any interest in the books the first two set immediately after their return tell a good tale.

When we see the crew in the future timeline it does make us want MORE..

AdmiralScreed · March 18 2013, 11:22 PM

teacake wrote:

A post Endgame movie would have been nice, but they would need a drama to deal with rather than just being a doco about what they did back home. If you have any interest in the books the first two set immediately after their return tell a good tale.

When we see the crew in the future timeline it does make us want MORE..

Now that you mention it, a post-Endgame movie would have been fantastic! I doubt there would have been much demand for it outside of fan circles like our own, but hey, nothing wrong with making a movie just for the hardcore fans, right?

Guy Gardener · March 18 2013, 11:47 PM

In the novels Janeway becomes good friends with her exfiance Mark's wife. They all go to the beach together. Janeway wears a huge sunhat so that she doesn't freckle.

Have they all secretly been French the whole time?

Here's something to consider which you obviously didn't notice, according to Berman this was the absolute destruction of the Borg. They're all Gone. Janeway got them and the Alpha Quadrant is safe. Janeway is a HERO!

Pockets books said "go fuck yourself" to that.

Cou-29th Century Timecops-ough!

tighr · March 19 2013, 12:18 AM

AdmiralScreed wrote:

So, my question about how they were going to get home was answered in Endgame.........through a convoluted time travel plot, future Janeway helps the Voyager from our timeline get home 16 years faster than in her own timeline.

If Janeway can go all the way back in time, why did she pick this particular point in time?

Exactly. We the viewer were cheated out of 16 more seasons of adventures of the Voyager crew, which in the prime universe clearly occurred. Instead, that universe was branched and we're left with our universe, in which the Voyager mission only lasted 7 years and not 23.

Future Janeway picks that point in time to return to because it satisfies the plot necessities. The show was ending, and that was the point in the story at which the show was currently at, so that becomes the end of the show.

Say it with me now, deus ex machina.

Of course, at the rate B&B and the writers were going, I don't know that I would have really wanted to see seasons 8-23 of Voyager. It's probably best they ended it when they did.

For anyone that reads the novels, has any writer tackled the stories of a Voyager that didn't go home in Endgame?

AdmiralScreed wrote:

which leads to my next point.....

WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THEY GOT HOME!!!!!?????

What a wasted opportunity. Seriously, they're not going to show us what happens to them all?

I agree that I'd like to see what happened when they got home, but as others have pointed out there are novels for that. As I have no real interest in reading continuation novels, I can't really be that upset about not knowing. It's a valid plot device, though. Rarely does an epilogue (especially not an extended epilogue) do the main story any justice.

For example, how tacked on did the epilogue to Harry Potter feel? And this is one reason I'm hesitant about a ninth season of How I Met Your Mother, as it has been strongly hinted that we're going to meet the mother in the season 8 finale.

AdmiralScreed · March 19 2013, 12:40 AM

@ tighr: I wouldn't have wanted another 16 seasons of Voyager either. So yeah, I get why the writers sent future Janeway back to year 7. From an in-universe standpoint it just doesn't make a lot of sense though. The writers could have rewritten this episode in a way that would have avoided that confusion. Throw in a couple more important reasons why Janeway has to go back to that specific point in time and problem solved.

I have no interest in reading the novels either, that's why I think it would have been nice if they'd done something a little special in Endgame. Even if it was just 10 minutes at the very end, I think it just would have been nice to have seen the crew reunited with their friends and family back on Earth.

Captain Kathryn · March 19 2013, 12:52 AM

Ahh mention of Endgame.

The admiral version of Janeway obviously didn't give a crap about the Temporal Prime Directive, but still managed to leave out a host of details.

Here are the reasons I personally dislike Endgame:

1. I have to say it even though it's been said a million times and I understand that not everyone hates it as much as I do...but Seven and Chakotay? Really?

Random, underdeveloped, and just...wrong.

2. Chakotay dies...why? All Janeway says is "he was brokenhearted after Seven's death". Okay...soooo did he kill himself? How did he die? Why? What?

3. How exactly did Seven die? Janeway says she "was injured and died" but no details at all.

ADMIRAL: Seven of Nine is going to die.
JANEWAY: What?
ADMIRAL: Three years from now she'll be injured on an away mission. She'll make it back to Voyager, and die in the arms of her husband.

4. In the original timeline: How did they get home in 23 years instead of the pre-mentioned 70? From what I can recall, they don't say.

5. They do not show any reunion on Earth after the admiral changes the timeline...if anything, the Endgame story should have been the second-to-last episode or third-to-last so the viewers AT LEAST get to see them land on Earth and see their families or SOMETHING. it's like... dang, I watched 7 whole seasons and I don't even get to see them back on Earth. I guess that's what the novels and fanfiction are for... -_-

6. You never actually see Janeway and Chakotay discussing his relationship with Seven...

This is all you get:

JANEWAY: Oh, I don't know. I wouldn't mind giving his red alert chilli a try. Feel like having lunch?
CHAKOTAY: I'd love to, but I've already made plans. Rain check?
JANEWAY: Absolutely.

Besides Janeway asking Chakotay to "set a course for home", they don't converse at all in the episode. He also uncharacteristically refers to Janeway's future self as just "an admiral from the future" and not the person who has been his friend for 7 years. A little disrespectful, I think... Sheesh.

There's more... those are my main reasons though. Argh...

tighr · March 19 2013, 01:00 AM

AdmiralScreed wrote:

I wouldn't have wanted another 16 seasons of Voyager either. So yeah, I get why the writers sent future Janeway back to year 7. From an in-universe standpoint it just doesn't make a lot of sense though. The writers could have rewritten this episode in a way that would have avoided that confusion.

Yeah, here's a suggestion: Have them get back to Earth at the end of season 7 via conventional means, and not through the benefit of time travel.

The very act of showing us an alternate future and implying the existence of 16 years worth of stories that we never get the opportunity to see is a cheat.

They want to feature the Borg in the series finale. Fine. Rework the story so they fight the Borg and blow up the transwarp hub and fly back to the Alpha Quadrant WITHOUT the use of future Janeway and future-tech, and I'd be much happier.

Captain Kathryn · March 19 2013, 01:04 AM

tighr wrote:

AdmiralScreed wrote:

I wouldn't have wanted another 16 seasons of Voyager either. So yeah, I get why the writers sent future Janeway back to year 7. From an in-universe standpoint it just doesn't make a lot of sense though. The writers could have rewritten this episode in a way that would have avoided that confusion.

Yeah, here's a suggestion: Have them get back to Earth at the end of season 7 via conventional means, and not through the benefit of time travel.

The very act of showing us an alternate future and implying the existence of 16 years worth of stories that we never get the opportunity to see is a cheat.

They want to feature the Borg in the series finale. Fine. Rework the story so they fight the Borg and blow up the transwarp hub and fly back to the Alpha Quadrant WITHOUT the use of future Janeway and future-tech, and I'd be much happier.

Agreed.

tighr · March 19 2013, 01:05 AM

Captain Kathryn wrote:

Besides Janeway asking Chakotay to "set a course for home", they don't converse at all in the episode. He also uncharacteristically refers to Janeway's future self as just "an admiral from the future" and not the person who has been his friend for 7 years. A little disrespectful, I think... Sheesh.

Yeah, but granted that's because the Admiral from the future is some psycho-bitch on a power trip.

I've got ex-girlfriends that were my friends for a long time before our break up, but if I ever saw them again and introduced them to my friends, I'd be like "some chick I used to bang."

Captain Kathryn · March 19 2013, 01:09 AM

tighr wrote:

Captain Kathryn wrote:

Besides Janeway asking Chakotay to "set a course for home", they don't converse at all in the episode. He also uncharacteristically refers to Janeway's future self as just "an admiral from the future" and not the person who has been his friend for 7 years. A little disrespectful, I think... Sheesh.

Yeah, but granted that's because the Admiral from the future is some psycho-bitch on a power trip.

I've got ex-girlfriends that were my friends for a long time before our break up, but if I ever saw them again and introduced them to my friends, I'd be like "some chick I used to bang."

True...but it was still Janeway. Despite being older and from the future, it was still her. And she came from the future FOR THEM. So that Chakotay and Seven wouldn't die and Tuvok wouldn't go into a state of dementia.

Although I would have rather had Endgame NOT use time travel and not have an admiral from the future...I still just don't like the way they just blew off Chakotay and Janeway's friendship like that.

Again...WHY DID CHAKOTAY DIE. I need to know. Haha. Not fair...

Also... J/C shippers needed one more episode so Chakotay and Seven could break up and Chakotay and Janeway could share a passionate kiss at the welcome home gala...I'm just...adding that to my list of complaints. :P

March 18 2013, 07:11 AM	#1861
exodus Fleet Admiral Location: The Digital Garden	Re: Does It Get Better??? Seeing that much of Voyager in later years was shown out of production order, I always assumed "Renaissance Man" was written and filmed before "Author, Author". So Janeway isn't punishing him because she still doesn't see him as "real" and it's absurd to her to punish something she views as a machine. I'm not sure the EMH can be held in the brig. Couldn't he just walk through the force field or transfer his program to another room? He would have to be willing to accept punishment I assume, if not other than deleting his program how would you stop or contain a being of light and computer pathways? __________________ Life's a bitch.........until you have a orgasm. Last edited by exodus; March 18 2013 at 07:27 AM.

March 18 2013, 08:12 AM	#1862
Guy Gardener Admiral Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.	Re: Does It Get Better??? Remember O'Brien in hard Time? The Doctor can spend 20 years in the brig while the rest of the crew blinks. They can simulate pain or death, strike him with any disease they can think of, effect blindness, remove limbs, or do all sorts of horrible things to his memories like murder his children who don't exist or arrange a marriage to a right shrew. The Doctor has no idea how lucky he had it, that they let him run amok willy nilly with no checks and balances, consequences or repurcussions. __________________ "Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft." Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz

March 18 2013, 07:54 PM	#1864
Guy Gardener Admiral Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.	Re: Does It Get Better??? The doctor can't express his unhappiness by spitting into his patients. So he has to get creative. __________________ "Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft." Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz

March 18 2013, 08:41 PM	#1865
AdmiralScreed Captain Location: Minnesota	Re: Does It Get Better??? Alright, so my thoughts on Endgame........ Well there are a couple ways that I can critique this episode. One, I can critique this episode for what was actually in it. Two, I can critique it for what was NOT in it. I'm going to do both. Okay, so we've finally made it to the end of the series. I knew going into this episode that they were going to make it home. In fact, I've known it for a very long time. The show ended 12 years ago, and I've been floating around Trek forums long enough that it would have been impossible for me to not read that spoiler at one point or another. So, going into this episode I wanted to know exactly how they were going to get home, who was going to make it back alive, who wasn't, and what was going to happen when they were finally reunited with Starfleet. So, my question about how they were going to get home was answered in Endgame.........through a convoluted time travel plot, future Janeway helps the Voyager from our timeline get home 16 years faster than in her own timeline. Not bad. Time travel has been done to death in Trek, especially in Voyager, but I'll buy it......well, I'll mostly buy it. If Janeway can go all the way back in time, why did she pick this particular point in time?............Okay, so Voyager was close to the Borg travel hubs, so she wanted to help them use the hubs to travel back home. That makes sense....but couldn't she have also used her technology to go back even further? As several of you pointed out, Carrey had just been killed several episodes earlier. Why didn't she choose to save him, especially considering saving lives was her entire motivation for doing this in the first place? Heck, she could have even gone back to the first episode and prevented them all from being stuck in the Delta Quadrant. I'm nitpicking. To me, these are minor points that don't detract very much from the viewing experience. Still worth pointing out though. Moving on, I definitely enjoyed seeing the Voyager crew of the future. Too bad that that future didn't actually happen....... Another Borg episode? I'm onboard with that. Seeing how they were the biggest villians on this show, it was fitting that they played a large role in the finale, and also that the Borg Queen finally met her end. I have no complaints about any of this. Chakotay and Seven? They'd been hinting at them getting together, so I'll buy it. Still, it would have been nice to have seen what happened between them once they got home......which leads to my next point..... WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THEY GOT HOME!!!!!????? What a wasted opportunity. Seriously, they're not going to show us what happens to them all? What happens to Chakotay and his Maquis mates? I doubt that everyone back home welcomed them with such open arms. There are always the skeptics. Did they go through any kind of trial? Why didn't we see any of this??? I guess we're just supposed to assume that they returned as decorated heroes. Where was the big father-son reunion between Admiral Paris and Tom? There was some bad blood between them before Voyager was whisked away. It would have been nice to have seen them finally put the past behind them and move on. No hug even??? Where's the big ceremony? Like the one at the end of Star Trek VI. Come on....... Why couldn't this episode have been three parts instead of two? Or if they'd returned home earlier in the season then we would have had lots of time to see them adapting to life back home in the Alpha Quadrant. But I digress...... I really did enjoy this episode, despite all of my quibbling. I think they did plenty of things right with Endgame, I'm just thinking of ways it could have been even better! With all that said, my final rating is...... 8/10 That wraps up this show. __________________ Picard > Kirk

March 18 2013, 10:24 PM	#1866
teacake Admiral Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.	Re: Does It Get Better??? A post Endgame movie would have been nice, but they would need a drama to deal with rather than just being a doco about what they did back home. If you have any interest in the books the first two set immediately after their return tell a good tale. When we see the crew in the future timeline it does make us want MORE.. __________________ Rider: I can't believe you'd kill me for a field of empty holes. J'onn: It's all I have. ■ ■ ■ Janeway does Melbourne

STAR TREK

CSI

ABOUT US

March 18 2013, 11:47 PM	#1868
Guy Gardener Admiral Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.	Re: Does It Get Better??? In the novels Janeway becomes good friends with her exfiance Mark's wife. They all go to the beach together. Janeway wears a huge sunhat so that she doesn't freckle. Have they all secretly been French the whole time? Here's something to consider which you obviously didn't notice, according to Berman this was the absolute destruction of the Borg. They're all Gone. Janeway got them and the Alpha Quadrant is safe. Janeway is a HERO! Pockets books said "go fuck yourself" to that. Cou-29th Century Timecops-ough! __________________ "Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft." Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz

March 19 2013, 12:40 AM	#1870
AdmiralScreed Captain Location: Minnesota	Re: Does It Get Better??? @ tighr: I wouldn't have wanted another 16 seasons of Voyager either. So yeah, I get why the writers sent future Janeway back to year 7. From an in-universe standpoint it just doesn't make a lot of sense though. The writers could have rewritten this episode in a way that would have avoided that confusion. Throw in a couple more important reasons why Janeway has to go back to that specific point in time and problem solved. I have no interest in reading the novels either, that's why I think it would have been nice if they'd done something a little special in Endgame. Even if it was just 10 minutes at the very end, I think it just would have been nice to have seen the crew reunited with their friends and family back on Earth. __________________ Picard > Kirk

March 19 2013, 12:52 AM	#1871
Captain Kathryn Commander Location: Please state the nature of the medical emergency.	Re: Does It Get Better??? Ahh mention of Endgame. The admiral version of Janeway obviously didn't give a crap about the Temporal Prime Directive, but still managed to leave out a host of details. Here are the reasons I personally dislike Endgame: 1. I have to say it even though it's been said a million times and I understand that not everyone hates it as much as I do...but Seven and Chakotay? Really? Random, underdeveloped, and just...wrong. 2. Chakotay dies...why? All Janeway says is "he was brokenhearted after Seven's death". Okay...soooo did he kill himself? How did he die? Why? What? 3. How exactly did Seven die? Janeway says she "was injured and died" but no details at all. ADMIRAL: Seven of Nine is going to die. JANEWAY: What? ADMIRAL: Three years from now she'll be injured on an away mission. She'll make it back to Voyager, and die in the arms of her husband. 4. In the original timeline: How did they get home in 23 years instead of the pre-mentioned 70? From what I can recall, they don't say. 5. They do not show any reunion on Earth after the admiral changes the timeline...if anything, the Endgame story should have been the second-to-last episode or third-to-last so the viewers AT LEAST get to see them land on Earth and see their families or SOMETHING. it's like... dang, I watched 7 whole seasons and I don't even get to see them back on Earth. I guess that's what the novels and fanfiction are for... -_- 6. You never actually see Janeway and Chakotay discussing his relationship with Seven... This is all you get: JANEWAY: Oh, I don't know. I wouldn't mind giving his red alert chilli a try. Feel like having lunch? CHAKOTAY: I'd love to, but I've already made plans. Rain check? JANEWAY: Absolutely. Besides Janeway asking Chakotay to "set a course for home", they don't converse at all in the episode. He also uncharacteristically refers to Janeway's future self as just "an admiral from the future" and not the person who has been his friend for 7 years. A little disrespectful, I think... Sheesh. There's more... those are my main reasons though. Argh... __________________ CHAKOTAY: You're not alone, Kathryn. JANEWAY: Three years ago I didn't even know your name... today I couldn't imagine a day without you.