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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old December 14 2011, 06:40 AM   #121
Nerys Myk
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Thought the episode was a comment on religion, myself.
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Old January 12 2012, 05:31 PM   #122
siskokid888
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
Hey There SISKO - I hear what you are saying, however, I stick to my course of action based on the following reasons:

1. Star Fleet Command is fully provisioned to deal with the situation of KAHN and his people. As I am not cut off from communications with SFC in this situation it is not within my authority to usurp the jurisdiction of SFC, and thereby act as a judge, jury, and/or executioner. To put it simply, in this case - being in communication to higher authority - deciding KAHN's fate is therefore not my job; only his delivery.

2. Added whatever past issues need to be addressed, KAHN now gets to add the very current charges of commandeering a Federation vessel, and in doing so, endangering the lives of all hands on board.

3. The concern that turning KAHN into the authorities will mean an automatic 'Death Sentence' is pure speculation and opinion. One would think that SFC has the wisdom to deal with his special situation and history; and again, as a Starship Captain, it is not my job to speculate if I personally feel SFC will have that wisdom - wisdom also being defined by my personal opinion.

4. The fact that KAHN is a genetically altered being through no fault of his own, is no more my concern regarding the discharge of my duties, any more than if he was human, Vulcan, Andorian, or what have you; as no one gets to decide their own creation - and again it is a moot point in relation to the execution of the orders I have sworn to uphold.

So,.. that about sums up my rational as to why I DO NOT give KAHN a court-martial, or place him on the planet.

Good points. But, as often pointed out in the TOS universe, starship captains have A HELUVA LOT of authority, given their distance from command central. Kirk may have weighed options, and (remember, he admitted he admired Khan) made a command decision that he in fact may have had the authority to make. I don't think the question is whether he had the authority to do it, I think the question is was it the RIGHT thing to do? What say you?
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Old January 13 2012, 04:53 PM   #123
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Well first off buddy, I say: WELCOME BACK!!!!!
Now, to your question,... You are 100% correct that due to the nature of things, Starship Captains do have 'a hellavu lot of authority in their scope of powers' - being judge, jury, and executioner - IN SITUATIONS WHEN COMMUNICATIONS WITH HIGHER COMMAND ARE CUT-OFF, OR THE TIMELINESS OF A RESPONSE WOULD PROVE ENDANGERING TO THE CREW AND ITS MISSION.

However, this is simply not the case in 'Space Seed'.

Therefore, based on that fact alone, I say, KIRK not only had NO AUTHORITY, but moreover usurped the UFC:SFC, the Chain-of-Command, and knowingly and purposefully violated his orders to deliver Kahn to the authorities for proper disposition.

And should be facing a COURT-MARTIAL himself!



So to answer your ACTUAL QUESTION in short: Breaking the very laws you are sworn to uphold, to enforce your own personal idea of what is 'just, humane. or right'; is rarely 'The right thing to do',.. The UFC:SFC has in place, procedures of petition AFTER the Captains' duty have been discharged,... and the criminal delivered to authorities.
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Old January 16 2012, 03:25 PM   #124
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

^But, were Khan and his people criminals? Again, I point to their lack of choice over their actions, based on being unwilling victims of genetic manipulation. And, if Kirk and co. don't "press charges", as it were, then that would leave Khan and friends lose in the Federation, or locked up for being who they are, since there is an apparent Federation wide fear of genetic alteration, as shown in DS9 re Bashir, and in the ENT eps dealing with the "supermen". So, I say Kirk knew that he was not going to persue charges, and rather then condemn Khan and company to some cage somewhere, decided to give them the opportunity to live out their lives challenged, but free. The humane thing to do, no?
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Old January 16 2012, 03:56 PM   #125
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

The problem is one of the duty of a StarFleet officer, acting in that capacity and charged with upholding and executing those duties,... and that of being a 'Federally funded humanitarian with transportation',.. which when it comes down to the business of enforcing Farederation Law and StarFleet directives,... he is not.

So when acting as an deputized officer of 'The Powers-That-Be', there is no latitude for personal feelings, opinion, politics, vendettas, or what-have-you; expeically when in direct communication with Higher Authority.

Again, in this case, the Captain is not afforded the power of judgement,... or 'creative alternative solutions',... only delivery for processing,.. with 'The 'Right To Petition', being executed AFTER delivery and the fufillment of lawful military orders.
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Last edited by Captain Tracy; January 16 2012 at 04:14 PM.
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Old January 16 2012, 10:14 PM   #126
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

How do we know that Kirk didn't have contact with Star Fleet Command before rendering his decision? They might have just "deal with the situation as you see fit" or perhaps he ran the idea past someone and they signed off on it? Besides, by handling it this way they avoided any publicity for the incident (your basic coverup) and avoiding any messy PR problems.
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Old January 17 2012, 12:09 AM   #127
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Don;t know if this has been mentioned or not re: The Intrepid in "court martial"

1.>Was it the same Intrepid that was destroyed in "The Immunity Syndrome"?
2.>At that time did it have a Vulcan crew? It is possible that a Human crew was rotated off the ship and a Vulcan crew assigned at some point inbetween the episodes.
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Old January 18 2012, 03:39 PM   #128
siskokid888
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
The problem is one of the duty of a StarFleet officer, acting in that capacity and charged with upholding and executing those duties,... and that of being a 'Federally funded humanitarian with transportation',.. which when it comes down to the business of enforcing Farederation Law and StarFleet directives,... he is not.

So when acting as an deputized officer of 'The Powers-That-Be', there is no latitude for personal feelings, opinion, politics, vendettas, or what-have-you; expeically when in direct communication with Higher Authority.

Again, in this case, the Captain is not afforded the power of judgement,... or 'creative alternative solutions',... only delivery for processing,.. with 'The 'Right To Petition', being executed AFTER delivery and the fufillment of lawful military orders.
I don't agree 100% - I think in Trekverse, especially in TOS time, Captains would have a lot more leeway in things of this nature. However, I will say "uncle". Your move, Ron.
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Old January 18 2012, 06:15 PM   #129
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Yes, that is probably best, as it seems we have reached an impasse.

Okay SISKO:

In the conclusion of the tale, 'A PIECE OF THE ACTION', it is revealed that DR. McCOY has left his communicator behind - and in BELA's office.

Knowing the Iotion's are a 'highly-imaginative and imitative people', coupled with the understanding of what the introduction of a single book did to their society, their apparent lack of ethics and morals, and most alarming - contained within the communicator is a piece of technology known as a 'TRANSTATOR', being the root technology for the entire basis of STARFLEET technology, - with the implication being, if opened and examined, the IOTION's will soon have Starships and Phasers !!!!

SO,... SISKO,... as Captain, do you just 'laugh it off and ignore' the situation as KIRK did,... or do you take action and recover the thing?
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Old January 23 2012, 03:53 PM   #130
siskokid888
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
Yes, that is probably best, as it seems we have reached an impasse.

Okay SISKO:

In the conclusion of the tale, 'A PIECE OF THE ACTION', it is revealed that DR. McCOY has left his communicator behind - and in BELA's office.

Knowing the Iotion's are a 'highly-imaginative and imitative people', coupled with the understanding of what the introduction of a single book did to their society, their apparent lack of ethics and morals, and most alarming - contained within the communicator is a piece of technology known as a 'TRANSTATOR', being the root technology for the entire basis of STARFLEET technology, - with the implication being, if opened and examined, the IOTION's will soon have Starships and Phasers !!!!

SO,... SISKO,... as Captain, do you just 'laugh it off and ignore' the situation as KIRK did,... or do you take action and recover the thing?
That's a great question, and it begs the further question which I think is the root problem here - why doesn't the Federation just help them out and give them the technology? The Prime Directive doesn't apply, as the Iotians are aware of space travel. In fact, not only are they aware, but it is implied that by studying the transtator, they could develop warp capability on their own! Also, they have already been "interfered with" by the Horizon. So the question is, why doesn't the Fed just send people to the planet to help the Iotians develop? Their natural abilities imply that they would be up to speed and members of the Federation in no time. On the surface, I don't see a moral problem with doing that, do you? So, if I'm Kirk, I leave the communicator, and I tell the Federation to get off their collective butts and get some people over there, because the Iotians are coming, like it or not.
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Old January 23 2012, 07:22 PM   #131
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Thought the episode was a comment on religion, myself.
The Apple? I got the impression it was a commentary on socialism and the nanny state.

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Old January 23 2012, 11:29 PM   #132
Captain Tracy
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

siskokid888 wrote: View Post
Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
Yes, that is probably best, as it seems we have reached an impasse.

Okay SISKO:

In the conclusion of the tale, 'A PIECE OF THE ACTION', it is revealed that DR. McCOY has left his communicator behind - and in BELA's office.

Knowing the Iotion's are a 'highly-imaginative and imitative people', coupled with the understanding of what the introduction of a single book did to their society, their apparent lack of ethics and morals, and most alarming - contained within the communicator is a piece of technology known as a 'TRANSTATOR', being the root technology for the entire basis of STARFLEET technology, - with the implication being, if opened and examined, the IOTION's will soon have Starships and Phasers !!!!

SO,... SISKO,... as Captain, do you just 'laugh it off and ignore' the situation as KIRK did,... or do you take action and recover the thing?
That's a great question, and it begs the further question which I think is the root problem here - why doesn't the Federation just help them out and give them the technology? The Prime Directive doesn't apply, as the Iotians are aware of space travel. In fact, not only are they aware, but it is implied that by studying the transtator, they could develop warp capability on their own! Also, they have already been "interfered with" by the Horizon. So the question is, why doesn't the Fed just send people to the planet to help the Iotians develop? Their natural abilities imply that they would be up to speed and members of the Federation in no time. On the surface, I don't see a moral problem with doing that, do you? So, if I'm Kirk, I leave the communicator, and I tell the Federation to get off their collective butts and get some people over there, because the Iotians are coming, like it or not.
SISKO - Yes in deed there are many problems with the whole Iotian issue to be sure.

I agree with all that you have stated, save for the fact that I do not understand why you choose not to recover the communicator.

I, for one, would get the communicator back; and THEN file the appropriate recommendation regarding the disposition of the Iotians and their planet.

TWO QUESTIONS:

Do you not feel it is irresponsible to leave this piece of equipment in their hands?

The fact the Federation is not only aware of these people, but moreover have visited them before,... begs the question - which you have raised, in part - why then has the Federation not done for the Iotians what they have done for so many other cultures (even when the culture didn't want it, or need it), and provided "Federation Aid",... do you smell the lack of a "profit motive' here??
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Old January 25 2012, 04:15 PM   #133
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

^Interesting point on the "profit motive" idea, and part of the reason I leave the communicator - it forces the issue. If the Fed is playing games as far as the Iotians, then being hit with the fact that they may soon be facing Iotian starships, may force them into confronting a problem they have been sloughing off on. I see it as righting a wrong - especially if, as you point out, there is in fact a profit motive involved.
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Old January 26 2012, 02:56 AM   #134
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

SISKO - heh heh heh,.. are you actually suggesting letting the Federations 'Roosters' come home to roost? LOL!!! Bravo!! LOL!!

Yes,... the Federation 'Profit Motive' is a huge UNSPOKEN underpinning behind the actions of the FED's in their relations with alien cultures,... and if you watch the episodes with this thought in mind, it becomes overtly obvious after a half-a-dozen viewings that when the FED's encounter a planet which is rich, or potentially rich in resources, the FED spring into action - whereas with a planet like Sigma Iota II, with no obvious resource,... well they get the short end of the FED stick.

Okay 'Pally',... you turn to fire away.
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Old January 28 2012, 05:06 AM   #135
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

In truth we don't know what happened with the Iotians. It's all speculation. It's a long stretch to assume that the backwards Iotians could reverse engineer a piece of what is essentially (to them) advanced alien tech into warp drive and starships relatively overnight. And who is to say that Kirk didn't turn around after his little joke upon learning McCoy's mistake and retrieved the communicator. Just beam it away and problem solved.
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