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Old November 7 2011, 08:08 PM   #1
xortex
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Kahless

Wasn't he supposed to be a bad guy. How did he turn into a good guy on TNG?
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Old November 7 2011, 08:21 PM   #2
sojourner
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Re: Kahless

He was a politician. Even when they seem good, they're bad.
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Old November 7 2011, 11:08 PM   #3
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Re: Kahless

Klingons were bad guys in TOS, therefore Kahless was portrayed as villainous in The Savage Curtain. With Klingons as good guys in TNG, Kahless no longer needed to be villainous.
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Old November 7 2011, 11:13 PM   #4
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Re: Kahless

Also the Kahless seen on TOS was an illusion created from Captain Kirk's memories and Kirk hates Klingons!
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Old November 8 2011, 01:27 AM   #5
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Re: Kahless

xortex wrote: View Post
Wasn't he supposed to be a bad guy. How did he turn into a good guy on TNG?
It turns out that Kirk and company were bigoted against the Klingons because of Federation-Klingon antagonism, and were thus unfair in their assessments of Klingon historical figures.
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Old November 8 2011, 01:50 AM   #6
xortex
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Re: Kahless

I'm not bying that. GR wrote him as a nasty, pure and simple. Rene Eschieverra wrote him as a good guy because he was lazy and it was convenient and he likes emo characters. He's a tribble.

Do they have a nazi avatar?
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Old November 8 2011, 01:55 AM   #7
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Re: Kahless

xortex wrote: View Post
I'm not bying that. GR wrote him as a nasty, pure and simple. Rene Eschieverra wrote him as a good guy because he was lazy and it was convenient and he likes emo characters. He's a tribble.

Do they have a nazi avatar?
Um, what? Rene Echevarria had nothing to do with the character of Kahless or the episode "Rightful Heir"... What exactly are you talking about?
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Old November 8 2011, 02:01 AM   #8
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Re: Kahless

xortex wrote: View Post
I'm not bying that. GR wrote him as a nasty, pure and simple.
No he didn't. He wrote a fantasy re-creation of Kahless created by the Excalibans from Kirk and company's ideas about what Kahless was like. He never wrote Kahless.

Rene Eschieverra wrote him as a good guy because he was lazy and it was convenient and he likes emo characters.
No, Ronald D. Moore wrote "Rightful Heir," the episode which featured the Kahless clone, from a story by James E. Brooks.
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Old November 8 2011, 02:09 AM   #9
xortex
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Re: Kahless

It just changes my post from him being a tribble into a sehlat.

I'll tell you why I don't believe it 1) you can't prove it 2) more importantly the Escalpian said something very specific about him which makes it highly unlikely he was a good guy.
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Old November 8 2011, 02:14 AM   #10
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Re: Kahless

xortex wrote: View Post
It just changes my post from him being a tribble into a sehlat.

I'll tell you why I don't believe it 1) you can't prove it
The Excalibans were pretty explicit in saying that they had created those figures by drawing them from the minds of the Enterprise crew.
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Old November 8 2011, 02:26 AM   #11
xortex
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Re: Kahless

They specifically called him a murderer. So GR's intention was that he was a good guy? I seem to remember GR died around that time. GRRR. Are you RDM's spin doctor?
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Old November 8 2011, 02:29 AM   #12
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Re: Kahless

Sci wrote: View Post
The Excalibans were pretty explicit in saying that they had created those figures by drawing them from the minds of the Enterprise crew.
Indeed,

Abraham Lincoln and Surak were exactly how Kirk and Spock imagined they would be to the point of Surak being a complete pacifist and not even trying to defend himself (which is inconsistent with assertions earlier in the series, that a Vulcan was quite capable of defending themselves if it was necessary). It also seemed that Kirk may have imagined that he could teach Lincoln a few things about leadership and this is maybe why Lincoln was quite content to follow Kirk's lead.
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Old November 8 2011, 02:33 AM   #13
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Re: Kahless

xortex wrote: View Post
They specifically called him a murderer.
When?

So GR's intention was that he was a good guy?
GR's intention was to explore notions of good and evil as represented by Kirk and company's perceptions of historical figures.

I seem to remember GR died around that time.
If by "that time," you mean, around the time "The Savage Curtain" was written, you're quite wrong. "The Savage Curtain" was produced in 1969. Gene Roddenberry died in 1991, twenty-two years later.

If by "that time," you mean, around the production of "Rightful Heir," you should make your transitions more clear. You were talking about "The Savage Curtain" and gave no indication you had switched to "Rightful Heir;" it took me a minute to figure out what you meant. But "Rightful Heir" was produced in 1993, two years after Gene Roddenberry's death.

Are you RDM's spin doctor?
I wish. I'd be making more money if I were.
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Old November 8 2011, 02:52 AM   #14
xortex
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Re: Kahless

No GR died about the time of rightful heir and the time they turned Kahless into a good guy and he was too sick to do anything about it.

So Kirk had no idea who Kahless was and his history was just Federation propaganda?
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Old November 8 2011, 03:24 AM   #15
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Re: Kahless

xortex wrote: View Post
No GR died about the time of rightful heir
Wrong.

Gene Roddenberry died on 24 October 1991.

"Rightful Heir" first aired on 17 May 1993.

For the record, that's a span of 1 year, 6 months, and 23 days. Or, 571 days.

That's not "about the time" of "Rightful Heir."

So Kirk had no idea who Kahless was and his history was just Federation propaganda?
Why not? Kirk admitted that he was deeply prejudiced against Klingons in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.
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