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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old February 15 2012, 06:53 AM   #961
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Yeah, I had a BIG problem with the Iliana Ghemor storyline when I heard about it. Way to completely destroy every last bit of the impact of "Second Skin" and "Ties of Blood and Water," people.
Have you read David Mack's "Rise like lions"?
It also features prominently enough cardassian civilisation. Also MU.
It turns out cardassians are way WAY susceptible to telepathic mind-reading and control.
No...I quit following Treklit awhile back, so I hadn't read it.
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Old February 15 2012, 11:39 AM   #962
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Yeah, I had a BIG problem with the Iliana Ghemor storyline when I heard about it. Way to completely destroy every last bit of the impact of "Second Skin" and "Ties of Blood and Water," people.
Have you read David Mack's "Rise like lions"?
It also features prominently enough cardassian civilisation. Also MU.
It turns out cardassians are way WAY susceptible to telepathic mind-reading and control.
No...I quit following Treklit awhile back, so I hadn't read it.
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Old February 15 2012, 01:13 PM   #963
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Explorers is a brilliant episode! It's not as politically far-reaching as the previous two episodes, but it's an excellent exploration story nevertheless. It's good for the Ben/Jake relationship, good for Sisko in general again to be having more devlopment, and of course it's good that his goatee has finally joined the rewatch thread! Our pagh is stronger for this.

It's not perfect by any means, but it's a joy to watch. And I love that fireworks scene, even though it's just a tad random. It was the perfect end to the journey.
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Old February 15 2012, 01:43 PM   #964
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

With this episode I have to show this video from Statnertage's which someone posted (it might have been TheGodBen himself, I can't remember)....



Explorers is a good episode. I'm glad they finally gave Jake some kind of character direction. The O'Brien/Bashir story cracks me up - especially when drunken O'Brien wonders aloud if Lense simply can't stand Bashir. It gives us the goatee and our introduction to Leeta. Finally, Leeta's intro. gives me another reason to dislike Jadzia.

However, I don't see how it exemplifies the Trek tradition of exploration. It doesn't have the captain punching an alien, radically redefining an entire culture or pontificating to someone he just met.
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Old February 15 2012, 07:05 PM   #965
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Yup, I'm the one that posted that video. What I liked about it was that the punchline was so obvious but I still didn't see it coming when I first watched it. It was a case of being unable to see the forest due to all the trees.


Family Business (***)

I generally prefer Ferengi episodes when they dial back the humour and treat the subject a bit more seriously. They're a weird culture and it's far too easy to play that up in an attempt to get cheap laughs, and that makes it very hard to respect them as a culture even though that's what Trek is supposed to be about. Giving Ishka droopy knees, having Rom stick a drill in his ear, making the characters talk in funny voices... if the show wants us to respect these characters it has a funny way of going about it. Sure, the writers could be going for some sort of meta-commentary about how the viewers are prejudiced against an alien race because of their disgusting habits, but I can't get past the feeling that they only do these things for yuks.

So this episode is a bit hit and miss for me. I like that it's more serious than a typical Ferengi episode, touching upon Ferengi sexism as well as the family problems of Quark and Rom. But at the same time it still does the old Ferengi jokes that we all know and know. They're in shorter supply than normal because the episode tries to be a bit more serious, which does make them more tolerable. And the serious story isn't the finest example of family drama I've ever seen, but it does okay.

Meanwhile, Sisko is pressured by everyone into meeting Kassidy Yates. This plot is... after checking a thesaurus I can find no word that fits as well as "pleasant". It's light, it's grounded, it doesn't make me want to vomit like other Trek romance plots... it's pleasant. Sisko meets the woman that will become his significant other, there's no melodrama, he doesn't instantly fall in love with her, they hit it off over a shared interest signalling potential for the future. For such a simple little story it's surprisingly mature for Star Trek.
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Old February 15 2012, 07:39 PM   #966
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

This episode is alright, as far as Ferengi episodes go. I think I preferred Andrea Martin in the role of Ishka - I'm not sure how that opinion holds in these waters!

It's basically a continuation of some of the themes brought up in Rules of Acquisition, with a look at a female (gasp!) making profit. What an interesting take on culture. But the silliness isn't as bad as things often got with Zek in the mix in later episodes.

And I'm agreed with the nice side story of Sisko going out with Kassidy. It was more interesting than the A plot, and probably could have made a more interesting episode. Though of course romance of the week could have then struck and given us another doozy.
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Old February 15 2012, 08:24 PM   #967
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

One thing I will say about Ferengi plots or subplots in general is that they do a good job with Quark, in my opinion. Quark is basically the default villain in all his interactions with family members, because he's the one trying to reign in their desires (desires we in the audience are supportive of). Rom, once he finally starts standing up for himself, wants to be "nice" to people and cooperate or compete on his own terms rather than subordinate himself to a business model he has no talent with. Nog wants to find a path that won't make him turn out like Rom, and bucks Ferengi tradition by joining a foreign military and becoming (a bit too eagerly) a disciplined soldier. Ishka wants to have the same opportunities for profit and cultural participation as the males. All of these are goals we support, and Quark is always the hand and voice of tradition trying to stop it. The great thing, in my opinion, is that Quark is still nonetheless treated with sympathy. He's just trying to be a good Ferengi and live by the rules and customs of his people, and ensure things work as they "should". Okay, to be fair that's easy to do when your culture says that as the eldest adult male you're basically Supreme Unquestioned Ruler of the Family, so that negates to some extent any nobility (or at least might make us question it...). Still, Quark is often treated as a surprisingly sympathetic figure while still being shown as "in the wrong", which makes for very interesting viewing. He tries to live his life by the rules, only none of his family will play along. They have to buck the rules all the time. We viewers usually cheer them on when they do, but we can also see and understand the strain it causes Quark. That's a surprisingly complex situation that does, to me, redeem somewhat the general...Ferenginess...of Ferengi plots.
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Last edited by Deranged Nasat; February 15 2012 at 08:49 PM.
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Old February 15 2012, 11:03 PM   #968
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

Have you read David Mack's "Rise like lions"?
It also features prominently enough cardassian civilisation. Also MU.
It turns out cardassians are way WAY susceptible to telepathic mind-reading and control.
No...I quit following Treklit awhile back, so I hadn't read it.
Wow. Definitely glad I skipped that one.
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Old February 16 2012, 05:31 AM   #969
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

Have you read David Mack's "Rise like lions"?
It also features prominently enough cardassian civilisation. Also MU.
It turns out cardassians are way WAY susceptible to telepathic mind-reading and control.
No...I quit following Treklit awhile back, so I hadn't read it.
I got that book for Christmas. That made me quite irritated. I like Cardassians (even the MU ones, who are arguably even more badass). Then again, its written by David Mack, the guy who wrote Star Trek Destiny (it was a good book, but the plot sucked) and killed off the Borg (and turned them into angels or some crazy shit like that), so I suppose I should have expected some plot like that.

So glad Trek books aren't canon.
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Old February 16 2012, 09:29 AM   #970
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post

No...I quit following Treklit awhile back, so I hadn't read it.
Wow. Definitely glad I skipped that one.
I can definitely see, Nerys Ghemor, how you, as a fan of the Cardassians, would not care for their treatment in Rise Like Lions. However, I found the book itself to be highly redemptive of the MU arc as a whole.

There is not one sex scene in the entire book (at least from what I remember). The plot moves along at a good clip and keeps you interested. And the ending is one of the most awesome endings I have ever read, in several different ways.

So, I mean, it may still not be your cup of tea, but if someone enjoyed "Crossover," then I bet they would enjoy Rise Like Lions.

(Sorry, Nerys Ghemor, to address this specifically to you; I remember someone, a few pages back, remarking on how DS9 MU stories went downhill, and I wanted to comment how, in my opinion, RLL brings them back up. )
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Old February 16 2012, 10:44 AM   #971
Edit_XYZ
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Paper Moon wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

Wow. Definitely glad I skipped that one.
I can definitely see, Nerys Ghemor, how you, as a fan of the Cardassians, would not care for their treatment in Rise Like Lions. However, I found the book itself to be highly redemptive of the MU arc as a whole.

There is not one sex scene in the entire book (at least from what I remember). The plot moves along at a good clip and keeps you interested. And the ending is one of the most awesome endings I have ever read, in several different ways.

So, I mean, it may still not be your cup of tea, but if someone enjoyed "Crossover," then I bet they would enjoy Rise Like Lions.

(Sorry, Nerys Ghemor, to address this specifically to you; I remember someone, a few pages back, remarking on how DS9 MU stories went downhill, and I wanted to comment how, in my opinion, RLL brings them back up. )
As someone who read 'Rise like lions' - and is no fan of the cardassian empire -, I disagree, Paper Moon.

I found the book one of the weaker outings of recent trek lit.

To put it succintly, it read like military science fiction; it was almost exclusively about military strategies/tactics/battles and tying up mirror universe loose ends. I don't open a star trek book in order to read military science fiction.
The character moments were few, far between and rushed; the book had a few WTF moments - not the good kind of WTF, that is.

PS - The ending was a standard 'happy ending' for the MU.

Last edited by Edit_XYZ; February 16 2012 at 11:10 AM.
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Old February 16 2012, 02:16 PM   #972
Admiral Shran
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Family Business gives us the introduction of my second least favorite character in DS9 - Ishka.

Now, I applaud her desire to want to rise above Ferengi tradition and show that she's just as good as any male. Who in their right mind wouldn't support that part of her character? But the way in which she goes about it really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Essentially, her way of doing things is to treat Quark like shit.

She runs him down at every opportunity, uses and emotionally abuses him whenever possible and clearly favors/loves Rom in every conceivable way. Is it any wonder that Quark has such a low opinion of her?! A parent acting this way toward his or her own child really undermines the lesson this episode tries to teach - that everyone should be treated as equals.

And it only gets worse from here.
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Old February 16 2012, 02:20 PM   #973
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Not wanting to jump the gun AS, and sorry if you've told us already, but out of curiosity, who's the character you hate more?
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Old February 16 2012, 02:20 PM   #974
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Jadzia.
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Old February 16 2012, 02:24 PM   #975
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

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Jadzia.
D'oh! Sorry, AS, that should have been obvious by now.
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