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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old February 13 2012, 07:24 PM   #946
Ln X
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

This should be five stars with heinsight because it causes the following chain of events which starts the Dominion war:

1. Obsidian Order weakens and collapses.

2. With the Obsidian Order gone, Central Command loses its grip on the Cardassian people and a popular/disident revolt occurs.

3. The Klingons suspect changeling involvement behind the change in Cardassian government and decide for 'the safety of the Alpha Quadrant' to take over the Cardassian Union.

4. The Federation refuses to help or support the Klingons and sides with the Cardassians.

5. Federation/Klingon war.

6. One disgraced former Gul, Dukat, manages to capture a Klingon bird of prey and engages in his own personal war with the Klingons.

7. Dukat realises he needs allies to defeat the Klingons so he turns to the Dominion.

8. Dukat leads a coup against the Cardassian government, with help from Dominion ships, unites the Cardassian people and military and begins the process of removing all enemies from Cardassian territory.

9. Maquis are wiped out and the Klingons are beating back and out of Cardassian territory. Khitomer accords are signed again by Klingons and Federation.

10. Dominion sends in more ships into the Cardassian Union, Sisko decides to mine the wormhole to stop the Dominion from doing this. War ensues...

It is only thanks to this episode that these events happened, and that's what makes this episode so amazing. The scenes with Garak and Odo are great, the Dominion is finally used to really drive the series forward, and we get a taste of the epic space battles to come.

This is five stars all the way...
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Old February 13 2012, 09:58 PM   #947
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Ln X wrote: View Post
This should be five stars with heinsight because it causes the following chain of events which starts the Dominion war:
Holy Spoilers, Batman!
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Old February 13 2012, 10:25 PM   #948
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I obsessed over the mimosa-drinking by Garak and Tain when I saw it, but it really was a fantastic episode.

And even though the thought of actual torture makes me queasy, that was a great scene.
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Old February 13 2012, 10:44 PM   #949
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Worf'sParmach wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
This should be five stars with heinsight because it causes the following chain of events which starts the Dominion war:
Holy Spoilers, Batman!
Spoilers for a show that ended what, thirteen years ago!?

Come on, you've gotta draw the line somewhere surely?
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Old February 13 2012, 10:50 PM   #950
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Well, at least two first time watchers are reading this thread. Spelling out the entire plot of three seasons should probably be under spoiler tags.
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Old February 13 2012, 10:51 PM   #951
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Worf'sParmach wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
This should be five stars with heinsight because it causes the following chain of events which starts the Dominion war:
Holy Spoilers, Batman!
Nah, it's TheGodBen's rewatch thread, everything is fair game. Now, Shatnertage's "Mostly First Watch" thread, yea, spoilers shouldn't go in there for episodes he hasn't gotten to yet, or in anyone else's first watch thread.
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Old February 13 2012, 11:34 PM   #952
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

apenpaap wrote: View Post
Well, at least two first time watchers are reading this thread. Spelling out the entire plot of three seasons should probably be under spoiler tags.
When I watched DS9 for the first time I looked ahead to see what was coming up. Besides I thought this thread is to also to discuss past, present and future implications for each episode?
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Old February 13 2012, 11:36 PM   #953
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it if I were you.
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Old February 14 2012, 06:38 AM   #954
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
And what I really like about this plot is that the Federation isn't involved, this is a major interstellar event involving three alien empires and yet we still care and feel like it matters.
This episode, and its predecessor, have a lot going for them, but this is the one item that seals them both as five star episodes for me. DS9 was able to take three governments/cultures/empires (call them what you will) and craft a compelling narrative around them without having to rely on using the entity we're naturally most familiar with - the Federation. That's a sure sign of excellent storytelling and writing right there. They were able to make us care about what were essentially pieces of the background in other shows just as much as we care about the "hero" society. Outstanding.
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Old February 14 2012, 06:03 PM   #955
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I would five star both of them myself too, they are excellent episodes. Best of the season so far and Top 10 DS9 I would say. Major revelations abound throughout both episodes, and the dialogue is riveting to help us eep up with everything that is happening.

In The Die is Cast in particular, the torture scenes between Odo and Garak were hard to watch, yet were so compelling. Garak had warned us what he was like, yet I couldn't believe what I was watching.
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Old February 14 2012, 07:07 PM   #956
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I'm not too bothered by the spoilers. I make a few myself, though I try to keep things vague enough by not explicitly stating future plot points. I know that there was another first-timer here a few months ago that was spoiled on Cardassia joining the Dominion, but I think they were scared off to Shatnertage's thread because it's mostly free from spoilers.


Explorers (****)

DS9 finally grows the beard.

There's an old Irish myth about a monk called Saint Brendan (the saint title obviously came later) that embarked across the ocean in the 6th century in a crappy boat with a small crew, and the legend claims that he managed to make it all the way to North America before returning home. There's no way of knowing if the story is true, but if he did then he would have been one of the first Europeans to make the voyage. Back in the 70s a crazy man called Tim Severin decided to test the legend and built a replica of a traditional Irish boat from that era using period tools, then he set sail across the ocean. He was never heard from again. Nah, I'm kidding, he actually managed to make it to Newfoundland thus proving that the story was plausible. When I was a kid I got to see the actual boat that Severin sailed across the ocean in while on a school trip to a historical park, and it was kind of exciting.

To the people that say that DS9 wasn't "true" Star Trek because it wasn't about exploring, I think this episode is a good example of why you're wrong. TNG, though I love it, was about a bunch of people in a 5-star resort that could request any item they desire from a replicator or live any fantasy in a holodeck. But in this episode Sisko builds a crappy little ship by hand and sets sail into the void because he thinks it will be fun. This episode better encapsulates the spirit of exploration than almost any other episode of Star Trek, and it temporarily turns a 26 year-old man into a 10 year-old boy that looked at a crappy little boat and thought it was one of the coolest things in the world.

Is the plot plausible? Not really. How does jumping to warp for 10 seconds bring the ship from Bajor to Cardassia? Did Sisko find another wormhole in the Denorios belt and not notice? What powers the gravity net? How did the Bajorans get their wooden spaceship into orbit? Ah well, at least we get a pleasant (there's that word again) father/son story out of the whole affair. It's about time there was another episode about Jake, he has been MIA for the last seven episodes. Having him become a writer is as good a direction to take him as any, and this episode also clears the way for the introduction of Kassidy Yates.

Meanwhile, O'Brien and Bashir get drunk. There was some sort of story here, but that doesn't matter, all that matters is that O'Brien and Bashir get drunk and O'Brien admits his not-hate for Bashir. It's very touching.
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Old February 14 2012, 08:46 PM   #957
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

To wring further use out of the word, even Dukat manages to be slightly "pleasant" in this one. The firework "celebration" is actually a favourite moment of mine. "Well done, Bajorans/Benjamin. Here's a little firework display to applaud you". It manages to be almost genuine as a political (and personal) olive branch, a friendly gesture between neighbours, while also allowing Cardassia politically and Dukat personally to maintain a slightly smug "upper hand" despite the potential embarrassment. Well played, Dukat, and well played, writers.
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Old February 14 2012, 09:26 PM   #958
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Holy Spoilers, Batman!
I always find it funny/annoying when people complain about spoilers. I mean, come on, the show hasn't been on the air for what, more than a decade now? If you're coming into a forum like this, you're risking being "spoiled." It's not like we're talking about a program that's still airing new episodes. Come on now.

In any case, "Explorers" is worth it just for this one exchange between Sisko and Son:

Sisko: Hammock time!
Jake: Yo!

I laugh every time, man. Every time.
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Old February 14 2012, 09:33 PM   #959
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

DS9 Gal AZ wrote: View Post
Holy Spoilers, Batman!
I always find it funny/annoying when people complain about spoilers. I mean, come on, the show hasn't been on the air for what, more than a decade now? If you're coming into a forum like this, you're risking being "spoiled." It's not like we're talking about a program that's still airing new episodes. Come on now.
I'm not complaining, hell I watched all these episodes first many moons ago. But I thought the rewatch threads were supposed to be fairly spoiler free. Maybe I'm thinking of Statnertage's, though.
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Old February 14 2012, 09:38 PM   #960
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

DS9 Gal AZ wrote: View Post
Holy Spoilers, Batman!
I always find it funny/annoying when people complain about spoilers. I mean, come on, the show hasn't been on the air for what, more than a decade now? If you're coming into a forum like this, you're risking being "spoiled." It's not like we're talking about a program that's still airing new episodes. Come on now.
For a rewatch thread, yea, I agree, but, a First Time watch thread, Spoilers should be off limits, especially, since the First Time Viewer is giving us the pleasure of experiencing the show again for the first time, through their eyes.
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